Can Hanshin Win?

Of course they can. Chunichi needs to realize that no-one outside Nagoya wants them to win (no victory sales and they don't like Ochiai) and lose their next 5 games.

Seriously though, it does require an enormous meltdown by Chunichi which isn't going to happen.

Puh-leese, while I doubt the Drags have much of a following outside the Chubu area, even if you're half-serious, no one except Kansai people (and their unfortunate, long-suffering spouses, and Kansai-jin in other parts of Japan) root for the Tigers. Really. Truly. (And no, I don't have any data points to back that contention up.)

And if the only reason someone calls himself/herself a Tigers fan is that he/she wants a big sale if the club wins - is that the kind of fan that any team wants? Is that the kind of fan that will actually pay to go to a game or buy his/her team's stuff or pay attention when the club has a bad year?

And no dissing Ochiai, please. Who is Okada? Um, famous for ... batting behind Bass? Let me get out my players guide ... um ... RoTY, Best Nine (once), Golden Glove (once), All-Star (eight times in 16 years), took his team to the Japan Series once, lost in four games. Is the only reason he's manager now and not Mayumi or Wada because he's senior?

That Ochiai guy? MVP (twice), leading hitter (five times), HR leader (five times), RBI leader (five times), winner of the triple crown in both the CL and the PL (only guy I can think of to have done that), Best OBP (seven times), Best Nine (10 times), All-Star (16 times in 20 years), ...

His wife is annoying and his taste in suits is frightening (but cut him some slack - he is/was a professional athlete - what do you expect in either category), but with the possible exception of Nomura, Japan has never seen a smarter or more natural hitter (Oh and Nagashima fans, please make your cases now). And Ochiai broke new ground in free-agency, becoming the first 2-oku player. (How did Okada end up at Orix?) And in Ochiai's first year as a manager took a borderline team to the Japan Series and lost in seven.

If popularity is the yardstick instead of ability or skills or class, NPB would be nothing but teams full of showboats and hot dogs like (former Tiger) Prince Shinjo. Sweet from a marketing perspective, but irrelevant in terms of baseball.

- ... even if you're half-serious, no one except Kansai people (and their unfortunate, long-suffering spouses, and Kansai-jin in other parts of Japan) root for the Tigers.

This is very inaccurate. Hanshin, if they didn't have a following outside of Kansai, wouldn't fill stadiums all across the Central League, and teams wouldn't be dependent on them for revenue.

I think you're misreading that. They do have an incredibly strong following outside of Kansai - one that most any other teams would love to have - but I believe first and foremost it is made up of people from the Kansai region originally or with ties to the region.

Oops, no, you're right - my phrasing could have been more accurate. I was thinking Kansai-jin = Kansai people = people of Kansai (i.e., from Kansai, not necessarily in Kansai). Apologies!

It seems I touched a nerve. Those were light-hearted remarks intended for entertainment, though containing an element of what many non-Tigers baseball fans actually think.

Apologies - my nerves have been easily touched recently, thanks to the combination of your Tigers coming on so strong for so long, and the Dragons' inability to shake off B-class teams!

- though containing an element of what many non-Tigers baseball fans actually think.

I would guess it's the opposite. I'd say that most of the other non-Tigers supporting CL fans would be rooting for Chunichi.

Among Yakult fans, Hanshin are second only to Yomiuri in terms of the team we hate, and a close second at that. In fact, in the opening lines of the Swallows version of the Tokyo-ondo (Kutabare Yomiuri/Die Yomiuri), the only team other then Yomiuri whose name is usually ever included is Hanshin (with many fans alternating the two teams' names - Kutabare Yomiuri, Kutabare Hanshin, etc.).

And I'd imagine that Yokohama and Hiroshima fans would be rooting for the "smaller," less fashionable "underdog" team, too. And Yomiuri fans certainly wouldn't be rooting for Hanshin (if they're still paying any attention to this year's season that is, which many of them aren't - the phrase fair weather fan doesn't do them justice).

I think that, though said mainly in jest, you are still overestimating Hanshin's popularity with non-Hanshin supporting baseball fans.

During the past few years which have seen Hanshin replace Yomuiri as the major force in NPB in terms of popularity, have also seen the "glory-supporters" who once followed Yomiuri switch their loyalty to the Tigers. And just as the Anti-Giants fan came to being during Yomiuri's domination of all aspects of NPB, the longer Hanshin remain the over-inflated beast they have become these last few years, then Anti-Hanshin feeling will only continue to develop.

Anyway, apologies for the digression from the original post. And in (a belated) answer to the original question the answer is, no. Thankfully.

This is not the case among the general mass of fans I come across. This is not to say that they are rooting for Hanshin, just that a Hanshin victory offers more. Victory sales are very popular and stores which hold them are guaranteed customers queuing up outside the store. Even though they have no affection for the Tigers, they do like bargains.

And the dislike of Ochiai is very strong among all of them (personally I don't understand why this is as the man is a genius as a coach). It's irrelevant to most fans who wins if it's not their team; but if there is a sale attached, it's a bit more interesting. Hanshin, with their well developed marketing, offer more of these so people are more interested because it's not just Hanshin goods that appear in the sales.

Incidentally, when we are at Jingu we sing along with the Tokyo-ondo (the Kutabare Yomiuri version of course). You shouldn't be jealous because one club has a better sense of what to do than the others.

- You shouldn't be jealous because one club has a better sense of what to do than the others.

It really isn't jealousy at work Christopher. After all, all that fancy Hanshin marketing still hasn't gotten them many Japan Series titles.

Some people just like, and have become used to, supporting their smaller, unfashionable teams, which get next to no media coverage or wider appreciation. And so when the big Hanshin bandwagon rolls into town, it's bound to generate some ill-feeling, as it still does (but to a lesser extent these days) with Yomiuri.

In which case we can call it envy. There is no harm or wrong in supporting a small, "unfashionable" team (though supporting a team located in one of the most upscale and fashionable districts of Tokyo is stretching the definition) if that's what you want to do. However, ill feeling towards other teams which are more successful or have a larger fan base just because of this is remarkably petty. The fact that the Swallows cannot fill their own ground, or even their own side of the stadium, should give you pause for thought. They rely on the Giants and the Tigers for a massive portion of their income. Transfer the Swallows to the Pacific League and I am sure Yakult would be thinking - how can we get rid of this millstone? So be thankful that when the Hanshin bandwagon does role into town all these people who you feel ill disposed to spend enormous amounts of money which goes into the pockets of the Swallows and enables them to continue playing at their beautiful ground, and gives you the opportunity to continue supporting your small, unfashionable club.

- However, ill feeling towards other teams which are more successful or have a larger fan base just because of this is remarkably petty.

It isn't the only reason for the ill-feeling. See my post in the other Hanshin thread for the main reasons Yakult fans don't like the visit of Hanshin.

Some people just like to root for the underdog, and a side effect of this mentality is a fondness for seeing the big boys fall.

And though you think we should all be on our knees thanking the lord for the existence of Hanshin, I seem to remember the Swallows doing pretty well for themselves well before the legions of magically appearing Tigers fans were squeezing into Jingu, and I'm sure we'll do fine long after they disappear again.

In today's environment it is becoming no longer acceptable to have a baseball team just for brand recognition purposes. Owners are waking up to the fact that baseball teams should make money. Unfortunately, the marketing for the most part is still clueless, and without the big teams you do not get the legions of supporters who spend and boost your income.

In the thread on the Riggs shirt we saw how clueless Yakult actually are. With the Tigers you can have any name you want on a shirt to the extent of even putting your own name and number (just buy the individual letters and numbers). Yet this does not seem to have occurred to the Yakult marketing and licensing division.

Yakult are in a difficult situation as the Tokyo team is the Giants and they will always be second best in fan affection, so they do need the big teams for a lot of their income. As I said, be thankful that there is a boom in Hanshin fans because it adds to your club's income and helps persuade the owners that it is worth keeping the club at Jingu. Without the fans from the big clubs the situation may change and not for the better (Nippon Ham, Kintetsu). But also remember - the underdog label is applicable to all of the teams at some time in their history (in 2003 Tigers were the underdogs).

I agree that the Yakult marketing department needs to continue to improve, though it has improved immensely over the past 5 years or so.

I feel the reason they don't produce shirts such as Riggs' is that there simply isn't much of a demand for them. Swallows fans are used to our foreign players lasting a year or so and then moving on (though Ramirez has remained constant these last number of years, Riggs is the latest in a long line of foreigners who came to the team and left pretty sharpish, Billy Martin and Todd Betts anyone?). So fans don't want to invest in a shirt if it could be obsolete in a year. So they go for the long-termer Japanese players such as Aoki, Miyamoto, and the like. There is probably no market for Riggs shirts at this time. If he's signed up again next year then things may change, but until then people will stick with the players they know will be around for a while. (It could be that I'm completely wrong and they've been producing Riggs shirts in small volumes all this time and I've just never seen one.)

And as for Hanshin being underdogs in 2003, yes they were, in a way. But not truly. Hanshin has, for quite some time (if not forever), been the dominant team in the Kansai area in terms of popularity. Yes, they were the underdog in 2003, but only due to a lack of success, they had many other things in their favor. Now if it were Hiroshima making a push for the pennant in 2003 then you would have a point.

Hanshin are, if you will, the Giants of Kansai (harvesting the smaller teams' best players, dominating media coverage in Kansai, etc.). There really isn't too much difference these days between the Giants and Hanshin. So it's natural for such a beast to be disliked by the smaller teams' fans just in the same way the Giants are. You may think it's petty, I think it's natural.

Comparing Yakult to Nippon Ham and Kintetsu isn't really applicable as those two teams had histories devoid of success, so moving/merging was a natural thing to do (and look what it's done for Nippon Ham).

I feel Yakult, on the other hand, being one of the more successful teams performance-wise during the last 20 years or so, have a pretty safe future right where they are now. Though I do acknowledge their need to continue to improve their marketing.

The point about marketing was not that Riggs shirts weren't offered but that the option of making your own wasn't even offered. For example I can't recall Hanshin offering a Sheets shirt, but you have the option to buy the individual letters and make your own. It's a rather simple idea which also allows fans to personalize their own shirts as well (witness the thread on such a shirt in Ask the Commissioner).

Accepting that Hanshin is a regional team and is successful in its region is not a reason to feel resentful. It is not trying, for example, to steal Swallows fans is it? Rather it is marketing itself in a successful way to its region as baseball teams in Japan need to. If you are talking about resenting the Giants then that is understandable as they tried to pervert and distort the whole of Japanese baseball for their advantage. Also accepting that the migration patterns in Japan lead to a large number of Kansai people (and other regions people) to come to Tokyo means that you will get a lot of Hanshin fans in the capital. Rather than feel resentful, smaller clubs should be looking at a way to emulate the successful Hanshin business model. There is a world of difference between the Giants and Hanshin (as there always has been) in approaches and philosophies. No Hanshin owner has ever behaved as Nabetsune did. A failure to see this essential difference does devalue your points significantly.

There is a shift taking place in the Japanese baseball world at the moment. It is no longer possible for most owners to have teams as advertising gimmicks - they need them to make money as well. This will change the dynamics of the market and is why the comparison between Yakult and Kintetsu/Nippon Ham is valid. As long as they have the two big teams providing a large portion of their income the Swallows have a chance to improve. But should these disappear and the Swallows have not gotten an alternative, the cozy view of a small team playing at Jingu will come under very sharp examination.

- I feel the reason they don't produce shirts such as Riggs' is that there simply isn't much of a demand for them.

What is stopping Yakult from providing custom jerseys where you can place anyone's name on it? Is it a lack of marketing or are they confused like the rest of the CL (minus Hanshin and Yomiuri) and have no successful business model? Because if Yakult did they wouldn't be dependent on support from Hanshin and Yomiuri games. If Yakult was to move to the Pacific League they would be in dire straits, as they have no successful business model, and aren't looking like they will anytime soon.

- Hanshin are, if you will, the Giants of Kansai (harvesting the smaller teams' best players, dominating media coverage in Kansai, etc.). There really isn't too much difference these days between the Giants and Hanshin. So it's natural for such a beast to be disliked by the smaller teams' fans just in the same way the Giants are. You may think it's petty, I think it's natural.

But why is this? Is it because Yakult and their parent company have no clue of what a business model is and can't attract big-name players like Hanshin and Yomiuri can?

About Hanshin and Yomiuri, there might be no difference between them, concept wise in terms of dominance of the Central League. Regardless of what you want to think, without them, Yakult wouldn't and couldn't survive as they are dependent on them to fill their own seats. You can hate them all you want, but you can't deny this, as if you take Yomiuri and Hanshin out of the CL, Yakult and every other CL team would most definitely suffer, and right away.

OK, in a brief reply to Christopher and (his echo) John and then I'm done with this.

I agree with you about the marketing department exemplified by the lack of custom shirts. Nowhere did I ever say it was good, and though it has improved so much in recent years, there are still acres of room for improvement. I would myself love to get myself a personalized shirt.

All this talk of "if they took the big two out of the CL then all you little minnows would be in trouble" is indeed true. Still, it doesn't mean we have to like the big two either though. And all that talk is merely a "what if?" as for the foreseeable future we're going to have the two league system in Japan.

I'm just looking at it all from a strictly sporting point of view, fans of underdog teams typically don't like the bigger teams, again a fact of life.

The Giants' comparison is valid in some respects. Hanshin suck fans and players from the smaller teams (the former especially so in Kansai), dominate media coverage, and regardless of why this is, some people just don't like that kind of team. It's natural.

I agree with what you both (continually) say about marketing and business models. But the fact is that the bigger the team becomes, the more flack you're going to have to take from fans of other teams. Call it resentful, envy, jealousy, what you will. But it's a fact. You may not like it, but you're just going to have to deal with it.

You're stretching the term underdog here. Underdogs are teams which have very little chance of beating big teams. They are not teams like the Swallows who have a fine pedigree and a very competent playing and coaching staff. Swallows are better defined as a small team, but quality-wise they are anything but underdogs.

With regard to your final point, the measure of a true follower of the game is that they don't harbor these petty resentments. They accept the other team's qualities and abilities whilst remaining committed to their own team. Now we all fall short of this ideal at various times, but to try and make a virtue of falling short is going a bit too far. The simple fact is that you should be able to appreciate what Hanshin brings to the game and to the Central League. Likewise (though it is more difficult) the Giants. But don't blame other teams for your own teams inadequacies.

- But don't blame other teams for your own teams inadequacies.

Now this is getting poisonous. Historically, surely you realize that a certain Kansai team suffered from a huge inadequacy not that long ago - the inability to win. That was, what, only three years ago, wasn't it? The laughing stock of Japanese baseball we were. Yakult and the other teams used to beat us silly - year in, year out. The way you're talking, you'd think the Tigers had dominated the Central League for the past 50 years. How many championships do we have? One! We have no right to be arrogant.

The comment refers to marketing inadequacies and lack of support, not on field performance. I thought that was clear from the context.

- The comment refers to marketing inadequacies and lack of support ...

And indeed it does. I never said it didn't.

What I'm saying is that while you're talking about Yakult's perceived inadequacies, you appear to be ignoring a more important inadequacy of the Tigers not so long ago. After all, what's the raison d’être of a ball club? Not to sell T-shirts surely, but to win games!

I think you need to read the entire relevant posts again and consider your replies carefully. The discussion doesn't relate to any perceived superiority of the Tigers in respect to playing ability - and in fact, it acknowledges the Swallows' playing ability - but to a rather petty dislike of Tigers over other issues.

Your final sentence is a very good point though - what is the raison d'etre of a baseball club? I would suggest it can have many. For example, for the owners and shareholders - it is to make money; and whilst winning is helpful in this respect, it is not essential. For the fans winning and buying T-shirts are part of the process of proving your loyalty to the club. For the players it is to provide self-respect and a forum for them to improve their skills and abilities. I am sure that you could think of other reasons as well.

- I think you need to read the entire relevant posts again and consider your replies carefully.

I always do. That's why I waited a while to enter this discussion. I don't just jump in with the first thought that comes into my head, y'know.

- The discussion doesn't relate to any perceived superiority of the Tigers in respect to playing ability ...

I know. I was merely making the observation that we need to be careful before accusing other teams of inadequacies (your words) when we have had many of our own over the years. I apologize if it was too subtle.

- Your final sentence is a very good point though ...

Thank you.

- ... what is the raison d'etre of a baseball club? I would suggest it can have many.

Yes you're so right. This was the typical reaction in Osaka during the lost decade:

"Well we came last again, but at least Hanshin has a great marketing department. Gee, didn't they move a lot of T-shirts this year - the Yakult Swallows must sure be envious. And I feel so good about how much the company is making from ticket sales. A record profit they say."

And I overheard a player once, saying this:

"I know we tried to win today, but although we got beat badly, it doesn't really matter. This team is providing me with self-respect and a forum for me to improve my skills and abilities. This uplifting experience is going to look good on my resume. Much better than a pennant."

But really, this is starting to get silly.

Oh my goodness. I very nearly spat my tea all over my monitor! Very funny.

Some good points made, too, mijow.

- I always do. That's why I waited a while to enter this discussion. I don't just jump in with the first thought that comes into my head, y'know.

ほまか？

- But really, this is starting to get silly.

I noticed.

Well then I propose a truce. If you agree to stop posting silly comments, I'll agree to stop making fun of them.

And his bad japanese - "ほまか."

What does that mean?

Yes, this should have read: ほんまか. He doesn't appear to have mastered Osaka-ben just yet.

OK Mijow, let's take a look at stakeholders. Each large business (and a baseball club is a large business) has may different sets of stakeholders all with different interests. But quite simply it doesn't exist to please the fans, it exists to make money or to enhance brand recognition. The fans are the medium it uses to do this, but they are not the be all and end all. Thus in the lost decade, the management is quite happy - they can tolerate the poor performances because their other aims (profits and visibility) are being reached. Of course they are exploiting the loyalty of long suffering fans, but all sports clubs involve an element of exploitation these days.

Using other examples, this was exactly the attitude of Rakuten's owner. It is also the attitude of the Carp's owners (they both made profits last year). They don't care about improving the club or the poor performances. So the fans can be very angry or disillusioned, but unless you get a revolt or a management who actually cares about winning, they can be pretty much ignored. Number one thing about fans, they're loyal no matter what.

So what is the advantage of winning? It brings in more fans but note this does not necessarily bring in more profits. The Daiei Hawks, a highly successful playing team, but profitable? No, their wages bill was too high, so in the end they were sold when the parent company had to cut losses. You need other ways of making money.

The answer is TV rights or merchandising. Yomiuri took the TV rights route and used it very successfully, though even then it was questionable that they covered their wages bill towards the end.

The other route, merchandising and regional identity, works in J-League and it works for Hanshin. You cannot cover your wages without massive merchandising. This is reality. I stated in another post that big organization marketing was anything but romantic. It is the same for running a sports entity. These are businesses, they exist for business purposes, and let's not be blind to this. They might have long and noble sporting histories, but sporting entities are not what they primarily are.

Players - well they have many different motivations, and some just want the cash. They don't really care if they win a pennant unless there's a bonus attached to it. Look at Tuffy Rhodes, he wanted a two year contract, not a one year one. That was his reason for changing clubs. Kanemura, his team were going for their first pennant in 25 years, but all he was worried about was getting his 10 wins for the sixth year in succession. Some will want to win a pennant, but not all. Its nice to win, but if you've got a fat paycheck at the end of it, it's not so important.

Side Note - Yes my Japanese spelling is atrocious - ほんまか。Is that any clearer?

- You're stretching the term underdog here. Underdogs are teams which have very little chance of beating big teams.

It doesn't get more underdog to me than trying to take on the Giants in their backyard these past 50 plus years (and still managing to be relatively successful). It's the major reason I originally liked the team - no one likes them, they're perpetually in the shadow of Yomiuri, yet they still go out and compete with the big boys. They have a certain charm, which leads to most people who I take/drag along to Jingu leaving with a soft spot for them.

And with regard to your final point, I guess a large chunk of sports fans worldwide are not true-followers of their respective games. We can't all be as perfect as you Christopher, but I guess it's something to which we can all aspire.

Finally, I can see what Hanshin brings to the game but it still doesn't mean I have to like them.

Mathematically, yes; realistically, no.

Mathematically, Hanshin still has a chance. Though as said above, I don't see it happening. Hanshin just hasn't played with the consistency to make it in my opinion, as there are just too many question marks.

- Hanshin just hasn't played with the consistency to make it in my opinion...

But you've got to admit their record since August 27 (23-5; .821) isn't too bad in terms of consistency. Taking the season as a whole, you're absolutely correct, but right now they're doing pretty well.

What's killing them is Chunichi's refusal to lose as often as required for them to make up the deficit. The Tigers have been doing extraordinarily well over the last month and a bit.

- But you've got to admit their record since August 27 (23-5; .821) isn't too bad in terms of consistency. Taking the season as a whole, you're absolutely correct, but right now they're doing pretty well. What's killing them is Chunichi's refusal to lose as often as required for them to make up the deficit. The Tigers have been doing extraordinarily well over the last month and a bit.

Indeed, the Tigers have done very well since late August. As a Dragons fan, I respect and fear the Tigers for that very reason.

Nevertheless, tonight's (October 9th) score:

Dragons 10, Swallows 1

That puts the Dragons' magic number at 1. Is it possible for Hanshin to still win? Yeah, but it would require Hanshin to win every one of their remaining games and Chunichi would have to lose all of their remaining games as well.

If Chunichi wins tomorrow at the Tokyo Dome, the discussion becomes moot. Japan Series, here we come! Now if I could snag tickets for one of those games.

- Japan Series, here we come!

And good luck to you, too. At least we've kept it close so you guys should be game-ready when you face the Hawks or the Ham. Disappointing for my wife, though, as she wanted to see Shinjo one last time at Koshien.

- But you've got to admit their record since August 27 (23-5; .821) isn't too bad in terms of consistency. Taking the season as a whole, you're absolutely correct, but right now they're doing pretty well.

I'm not denying that they have played great since August, as Hanshin has played outstanding baseball since then. Though, if Hanshin could play with this consistency all year, who knows how the tides might of been turned right now. Though, like you said Hanshin has played great baseball of late, which isn't bad in consistency. But like I said, if it would only have been consistent earlier.

Yakulto,

I think you may have attended too many games at Jingu in the rain without your umbrella.

Comparing the HT to the YG? That's like comparing Suger Ray Robinson to Bob Sap. Yes they are both popular, but Suger Ray earned his popularity by proving his skills while Sap is a bloated, steroid ladened, cartoon in a rigged system that is meant only to entertain the weak of mind. The YG rigged the baseball system for years to maintain dominance in NPB, they made baseball in Japan turn into a sham by bribing their way to get young players of talent or bullying their way in the league to get the players they wanted from other teams. Hanshin has done none of that.

You might want to become a Tigers fan if you can lose the chip on your shoulder you have about teams that are more popular than your namesake. If you do you would have to accept a team that has been less successful than the YS over the last 20 years. More fun however, and less bitterness at season end perhaps?

- You might want to become a Tigers fan if you can lose the chip on your shoulder you have about teams that are more popular than your namesake.

Only if I had some kind of major brain failure.

Again, the views I'm expressing are not solely those of myself, but other fans I speak to, too. I guess we've all got chips on our shoulders, eh. Such is life I guess.

Supporting the Tigers is more fun? Maybe for some. Bitterness at season end? Only in the fact that there's no baseball for 6 months.

Anyway, I am now truly done with these Hanshin topics. After all, there's a certain Japan Series coming our way.

Thank you yakulto. I also agree that it's more fun to root for one team more than another. For me, I don't really like to be a follower, which it kind of seems like Hanshin fans in Tokyo are. At least the two dozen friends I have that are Hanshin fans have to show up at a game 2 hours early to get seats they want, but I don't. And at the end of the season, too bad.

Hanshin put all that effort in too little, too late if you ask me. In the end everyone except for Chunichi is tied for second, good luck next year to everyone.