MLB RoY

Absolutely not.

MLB should adopt a NHL-type policy regarding players who've come over after playing professionally in foreign countries before going to North America. Furthermore, in the NHL, you can't be eligible to win the ROY award if you're over 26 years old.

MLB should adopt a similar rule. To suggest that guys like Nomo, Sasaki, Ichiro, Matsui, etc. are rookies is degrading to NPB.

I think that you shouldn't be eligible to win the ROY award if you're over 27 years old in MLB.

The best hockey players in the world are not American. They are mostly eastern European. That being said, most of these guys are not coming to a U.S. minor hockey league nor are they playing U.S. collegiate hockey. They are playing professionally in Europe. But I must ask, is the NHL the best hockey league in the world? Was it the best hockey league in the world at its inception? I do not know the answers to these questions. (Any help from a hockey fan?) If it was not the best league when it began, but paid the most to attract talent, then awarding a RoY to a Euro star would be silly.

MLS has offered large sums of money to attract over the hill Euro soccer stars to try to gain fans in America. Calling them rookies would be foolish as the MLS is clearly not the best soccer league in the world.

But MLB has always sought out and gotten (except for the dark history of segregation and Castro's current withholdings) the best talent in the world. Sure, maybe a few got left in Asia. Maybe a few got lost in the Minors. Maybe a few never got the chance out of college. But I don't think anyone will argue against MLB being the best.

Are Cubans ineligible? Korean league stars? Austrailia has a league (or it once did). It is not the job of MLB to police which leagues are of which level. It is that simple. It is no insult to NPB. To call it an insult is to play on peoples' sympathies. NPB is a fine league. But it is not MLB.

The age limit idea is interesting, but where do you draw the line? Out of high school at around 18, 4 years of college, then with 2 years of minors, you get to 24 in a hurry! I would be hesitant to make the cutoff 25.

One good idea I read, maybe it was written by Rob Neyer (the best writer at ESPN.com since Gammons has slipped), was to use a salary system. You make over x million dollars and you are eliminated from consideration. Even the most highly touted rookies (read: Mark Prior) don't make huge salaries in their first year. It is the guys that have already proven themselves on a world stage (read: Ichiro, Mastui, Contreras) that make the insane cash in their first year.

This idea seems to better serve the purpose of rewarding a player that has out-played expectations.

- Wayne

P.S. Stark is not without good views, but he does tend to write based on emotions, not empirical evidence. Read his column and look at the many times he states opinions without giving evidence to support said opinion. Or he chooses specific statistics that support his case while ignoring other, more glaring, numbers. He has also gone on record stating that Shannon Stewart is his pick for AL MVP. That alone should make you question his reasoning!

Stark has the best take on the situation I've seen. No hypocritical "He's not a rookie, but none of the stuff he did in Japan really counts!" type positions.

Still, Matsui is far from a prohibitive favorite, and his HR totals are way down. I expect them to jump back up next year, after he has a full year under his belt, but this does seem to indicate an adjustment period. Taguchi needed a year, too, to get up to his normal level of play (such as it is). Obviously, major adjustments are needed, even for Japanese veterans. The same could be said of Ishii as well.

It would seem Ichiro is some kind of mutant to come over and play like he did his first year. I hope he gets some of his mojo back for September. It's just not right for Ichiro to have a sub .320 BA.

Gee, I remember saying this same thing when Sasaki and Ichiro won Rookie of the Year, that it's an insult to Japanese baseball. The usual rebuttal is that there is more pressure and that it is a rank above with more of a gathering of the best from around the world. Another arguement I've heard is that, historically, players from the Negro Leagues were considered rookies as well, even though some of the Negro League teams were considered by many to be of Major League quality.

The problem I see is, would changing the rules to be more in line with reality (i.e., that Japanese veterans aren't MLB rookies) be fair to those crossing over that year; Matsui if it's this year?

I do like the age limit for a "rookie." It may not be fair to career minor leaguers, but it just strikes me as an award for youth. I also favor the idea of an age limit for inclusion in the Olypics since they eliminated the professional athlete rule. It, too, should be a showcase of youth, of the future. But that's a discussion for a different thread.

I think that Japanese vets should definitely be eligible for Rookie of the Year (though Matsui probably is not the most deserving candidate this season). After all, the award is named after Jackie Robinson, the initial winner, who came to MLB with pro experience, and other Negro Leaguers won the award, too. So did Sasaki, Nomo, and Suzuki. It would be silly to change the rules at this stage.

Also, while Stark argues that it is a third major league, the quality of play overall is nowhere near MLB level, even though some players are capable of playing in the majors talent-wise.

The Negro Leagues are not really comparable, as most people thought of the Negro leagues as somewhere between AA and AAA minor leagues in terms of quality, although that opinion did change somewhat after Robinson, Doby, etc. came up to the majors and performed well.

About the Rookie of the Year Award won by a Japanese ballplayer:

When the Negro Leaguer came up to the Majors in the late 1940's and 50's, they dominated the Rookie of the Year Award because they were already proven "professional" ballplayers. (Professional because they got paid to play baseball.)

1953 Jim Gilliam - Brooklyn
1952 Joe Black - Brooklyn
1951 Willie Mays - NY Giants
1950 Sam Jethroe - Boston
1949 Don Newcombe - Brooklyn
1948 Alvin Dark - Boston
1947 Jackie Robinsion - Brooklyn

I see many similarities between Negro Leaguers / Japanese Leaguers entering the Major Leagues.

If what KJOKBASEBALL said about the Negro Leagues is true,

"most people thought of the Negro leagues as somewhere between AA and AAA minor leagues in terms of quality, although that opinion did change somewhat after Robinson, Doby, etc. came up to the majors and performed well."

Well many people thought that Japanese Leagues were (and still are) considered "AAA and one half" but Japanese ballplayers like Ichiro Suzuki and Hideki Matsui are forcing them to re-think that notion.

This season is not even over and many Major League teams (and their fans) are drooling, anxiously awaiting the possible arrival of Seibu Lions' shortstop Kazuo Matsui for 2004 MLB season. YES, there is another Matsui. YES, there will be another Japanese ballplayer making his American debut. YES, it will be his first year in MLB which means that he should be considered a MLB rookie.

3yoyogi wrote:

- Well many people thought that Japanese Leagues were (and still are) considered "AAA and one half" but Japanese ballplayers like Ichiro Suzuki and Hideki Matsui are forcing them to re-think that notion.

Actually, if you look at how hitters who have played in both leagues have performed, including Ichiro and Godzilla, you have to conclude that the overall quality of play in Japan is not as high as in the majors. However, like the Negro Leagues, that quality of play represents everything from MLB all-stars to AA or maybe even lower quality players.

Jim Albright

- Well many people thought that Japanese Leagues were (and still are) considered "AAA and one half" but Japanese ballplayers like Ichiro Suzuki and Hideki Matsui are forcing them to re-think that notion.

If you say so, people can say that Petagine, Cabrera, Rhodes, Ramirez, and William, are forcing us to think that AAA is better than NPB.

Official record of the MLB vs. Negro League exhibition games shows Negro League won 70% of the contest between circa 1900-1945. They played over 500 games. Negro League was not well organized but definitely not an inferior league. How else can a 42 yr old rookie like Satchel Paige do so well in MLB in 1948? He also went 12-10 in 1952!

No way should Japanese or other foreign players get the RoY award. When Ichiro got it a couple of years ago, I was [upset] because he has already played professional baseball. And although I thought he did deserve the MVP, I don't think he should got both.

I think this year it should go to Angel Berroa. He has improved so much from what was expected of him. He is almost hitting .300 and has 16 homeruns. I think he deserves some good consideration for RoY.

And also Give the manager of the year to Mr. Tony Pena!

[Admin: I think the poster means "players from foreign professional leagues" when he says "foreign players." The rest of the post supports this and doesn't sound racist.]

I couldn't agree more with KC-san, and not just because I'm a Royals fan. Angel Berroa should be hands down the Rookie of the Year.

Here's [KansasCity.com] what current Berroa teammate and former Matsui teammate (Yomiuri 2000-01) Darrell May had to say about this topic.

No way should Japanese or other foreign players get the RoY award? Yet you say Angel Berroa "should" get the RoY award. Last time I checked, Angel Berroa was born in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic - outside the United States. [MLB.com player profile]

KCBelieves "should" say what he means and mean what he says.

[Admin: While I wasn't sure that Berroa wasn't a foreigner, I suspected that he might be, which is why I offered an interpretation. Thank you for the supporting evidence of that interpretation.]

Changing RoY qualifications is nonsense. Let the system stay as is. The only thing a true baseball fan complains about is that some writers who vote are "homers." There has always been debate about who got the RoY Award and who should have gotten it.

I, being a BoSox fan, somewhat dislike the NYYs, but I see a close vote between Matsui and Baldelli of Tampa Bay.

Sometimes winning RoY is a curse, other times it shows throughout a player's career that the right choice was made.

I, myself, have been skeptical of the current RoY guidelines -- surely Nomo, Sasaki, Ichiro, and Matsui Hideki are not rookies per se -- but upon closer inspection I feel that the rules should remain in place. If Jose Contreras had lived up to his hype (and contract) he would have no doubt given Matsui, Berroa, and Baldelli a run for their money. I'm sure if the winner wasn't an ex-NPB player there would be much less controversy. This debate is not going to go away with the eventual arrival of other NPB all-stars (Matsui Kazuo).

There is no clear cut answer. A Newcomer Award was never put in place when the Negro League players stormed the MLB and it should not be established now.

What's wrong with people from NPB winnig RoY? They're professional players just like the Minor Leaguers over in the United States. They play the same game, same rules, with the same passions.

The Kansas City Star has an article that is an interesting argument between a KC writer and a NY writer about who should win the ROY award, Matsui or Berroa.

Personally, I believe that if the situation was reversed and Matsui was playing for the Royals and Berroa was playing in NY, then Berroa would win the award easily.

Hello Westbaystars,

Thanks for all of the information [*]. I am from the San Francisco Bay area and post questions once in a while. Basically, I am rather ignorant about baseball in Japan. I am slowly getting educated and enjoyed the thread in which the Giants and Tigers fans traded e-mails. Reminds me of the Yankees and Red Sox fans.

I am also one of the few collectors of Japanese baseball cards, so any information that I get via this web site is helpful. (I totally agree with your censorship of the web site and appreciate all of your hard work.) I also send e-mails to the various sports talk shows and try to educate them on what little I know about NPB.

Personally, it still drives me nuts when baseball fans here in the U.S. do not think that Hideki Matsui should be considered for rookie of the year. I refer to an ESPN article that I read [Link] about Hideki where he states the following:

"That's what worried me at first, because the pitching here is better," Matsui said through an interpreter the other day. "There was quite a bit of adjustment for me. I was worried if I would be good enough to play here. The sinker and the cutter were much different than what I was used to."

The pitching here in the U.S. is different and, in my opinion, which of course is based on little evidence and a lot of conjectures, is superior to that of Japan. And, I truly respect Matsui for starting his career in New York. New York is probably the hardest place to play baseball and every mistake is magnified. There is no place to hide in New York - just ask Jason Giambi. Not only did Matsui take on the NY press, but he also has to deal with the Japanese press. High expectations and pressure beyond belief.

I agree with vending machine man in the MLB RoY thread - there is no clear cut answer. A Newcomer Award was never put in place when the Negro League players stormed the MLB, and it should not be established now.

Personally, I think a lot of this discussion about RoY from Japan is racist. Ouch - that ugly word. What difference does it make if someone plays professional baseball in Japan, Mexico, or Mars? They should still be able to be a candidate for RoY in MLB. The argument of Japanese baseball being equivalent to MLB is weak because of the difference in pitching and power. So, a player that plays professionally in Japan, Mexico, or Mars has still not experienced the best baseball on the planet.

[* Moved from the Most Popular Teams? thread by administrator as this was more appropriate.]

I completely disagree with Sharks410. If you take a look at this article [BaseballGuru] by Eric Gartman, writer at BaseballGuru, you will see that it is quite unfair to the young players if players from Japan win the award every year. In the NHL, players over the age of 26 are not eligible for the rookie of the year award (see nhl.com). MLB should have a similar rule. You can only win this award once, and it is not fair to the younger players.

I really don't understand this discussion. The award is "Rookie of the Year." And it really doesn't matter where you have been playing baseball before your first year in the ML. Even though Ichiro, Sasaki, and Nomo had been playing many years in Japan, they were still rookies in the Major Leagues! They played their first year in the ML and should be able to get the RoY award as all the other rookies, whether they played in the minors, Mexico, or where ever, it's their first year in the Major Leagues, and therefore they are rookies!

I wouldn't go so far as saying that it's "unfair" to anyone that Japanese players, like those who crossed from the Negro Leagues before, are taking so many Rookie of the Year awards. And I do think that it would be unfair to change the rules just to shift the advantage to a different group.

That having been said, I didn't think that Nomo, Sasaki, or Ichiro should have been considered rookies in the first place. They were all veterans who played in packed ball parks and were very much in the public eye on a daily basis. While North America may be larger in space, it really isn't that much bigger in scale in terms of media coverage. Especially considering that baseball isn't the national pasttime over there as it is here in Japan. No, I don't go for the "there's more pressure" arguements.

What I do think, similar to the person above, is that the Rookie of the Year award is really about youth. I don't care about being "fair" to young ball players. It's a rough, sink or swim world. But I do feel that the award itself is geared toward youth in spirit.

It's the same objection I have with professionals in the Olympics. I don't really care about the "professional" part, but the Olympics just seem to me to be about the future, and veteran athletes, while they may be the top in the world, aren't the future. I haven't really paid attention to the past few Olypic games as the spirit of youth has eroded away.

According to WordNet, the word "rookie" means:

an awkward and inexperienced youth

By definition, none of the Japanese who had won the award thus far have been awkward, inexperienced, or youthful. (Of course, I doubt if any winner of the award could ever be considered awkward.)

So, I agree that the award should be more geared toward youth. I just don't necessarily agree with many of the reasons going around.

I have been following this post and find it very interesting to see the opposing sides. One thing that Stark mentions in the ESPN article that I found intersting is carrying over stats from NPB once the players retire and the question of Hall of Fame eligibility comes into play. Now, if these guys are considered "rookies," then their NPB stats are basically the equivilant of a minor leaguers, i.e. they don't count for anything. What happens when a guy like Ichiro retires after playing about 10 or so very successful years in MLB? Under normal circumstances, 10 solid years isn't nearly enough to make it into the Hall, but should we completely ignore the amazing career that a player of his calibur has had (both in Japan and the States)? If these players count as "rookies," then the answer has to be yes, we ignore everything prior to MLB.

Since a situation like this hasn't occurred, I am curious to see how opinions on the matter will change once it does arise.

Negro League Players were admitted into Cooperstown on account of their stats prior to entering MLB. Some of these players were also eligible for Rookie of the Year. Thus, if Ichiro puts up the same numbers he has been doing for the next ten years, MLB will have to recognize his NPB stats. One only has to wait the ten or so years and hope that Ichiro's health and baseball skills remain in good condition.

[Note: A section appeared to have been cut out before posting. The section in questions began, "(and if this is so, then the" and the final sentence began right after that.]

Those posters who have accurately pointed out that there was no change to the rookie rules because of the influx of Negro Leaguers have overlooked one key point: by the time the former Negro Leaguers had amassed 3 or 4 rookie awards, the end of the Negro Leagues was already in sight. Thus, there was no potential that the situation would continue indefinitely. The NPB situation certainly has the potential to last a long time. Therefore, I do see a reason to differentiate between the two situations. Personally, I think an age requirement (say the player must be no more than 25 as of July 1 to be eligible) is appropriate.

Jim Albright

25? What if a player is a late bloomer? You are going to punish a player for being in the minors for many years?

- 25? What if a player is a late bloomer? You are going to punish a player for being in the minors for many years?

"Late bloomer" ROY's, with the possible exception of pitchers, rarely have exceptional careers. Besides, if we don't have an age cutoff, there's no fair way of dealing with the NPB veterans who are MLB "rookies." I submit my way is fairer than allowing long term NPB all-stars like the Matsuis and Ichiro to be considered as MLB rookies. The situation will be unfair to somebody, somehow -- but you want to minimize those situations. I think a 25 year old limit is about right for that (much younger could be bad for 4 year collegians).

Jim Albright

Well, Texas' Blalock is overlooked with suprising average of .300, with 29 homers, and 90 RBI. Why don't people vote for him instead of Gozilla?

Overlooked? He is not a rookie! He played 49 games with 147 AB in 2002. His team mate Mark Texiera is a rookie.

Berroa beat out Matsui in the closest AL ROY vote in 24 years [Link - ESPN.com].

I understand why the two writers left off Matsui, but these two guys that left Berroa off their ballots should be checked.

You understand? I can understand if the writers didn't think Matsui was a top 3 or 4 rookie, but they explictly state that they didn't consider him a rookie at all.

The rule is far from perfect, but while the rule is in place, the writers must abide by it. By definition, Matsui was a rookie. Vote accordingly. Don't make up your own rules.

- [...] but while the rule is in place, the writers must abide by it. By definition, Matsui was a rookie. Vote accordingly. Don't make up your own rules.

Agreed.

The two writers should resign from BWOAA. The president of the association should seek their resignation. Rules are rules. If they can shurk them, just think about how they feel about a player's skin color, where he comes from, who he plays for, and/or whoat position.

Ballou, who writes for the Worcester Telegram, always writes about what is good in sports, yet he failed to recognise his own bad deeds by not considering Matsui a rookie. Would he have considered a Cuban player?

I have to disagree with you. They didn't do that. The rules would not change someday!

If I were in their shoes, I would not vote for a guy at 29 with 3 MVPs in NPB, while Berroa's stats were not worse than Matsui's.

Berroa is not a white American!

Hey UMASS, you are missing the point. The guy left Matsui totally off of his vote. It was not that he thought Berroa was better. If he thought 3 guys were better that is fine. But to leave him of because of his own rule that Matsui should not be considered because of his Japanese league experience is not acceptable.

UMASS,

Matsui was better in 7 of the 12 catagories than Berrora. Ballou cast his vote for 1st place for TB Balldelli, who was only better in 2 of the 12 cat's than Matsui. Could it be that Balldelli is from the Pawtucket Valley and the Worchester paper has some sales in that area? Tell me his reasoning. Was it by cat's or stats?

Hey!

Matsui is also left off the All-Rookies, so there are so many thinking that Matsui is not a real rookie.

Why don't you ask the two guys who did not vote for Berroa?

Oh, my misunderstood twin brother is at it again. Interesting reading from the rag, The New York Post: [Link]

Matsui has been left off the All-Rookie Team as well.

This was kind of expected because it is voted by the MLB managers. And managers like Lou Piniella were constantly saying that Matsui is not a rookie. How quickly he forgets (Ichiro and Sasaki).

I thought Matsui and his 100 RBIs should have won the Rookie award.