Seibu Guilty of Cash Payments

Cash payments to ameteurs to get them to sign with only their team has been a serious problem for a long time. It finally came to a head when Watanabe-owner took responsibility for the practice by some of the Giants' scouts and stepped down as owner. (The teams are really owned by companies, but the "owner" is the top person in the ball club's management chain.) Hanshin's and Yokohama's owners similarly relinquished power when it was revealed that their scouts also paid rediculous prices for for "taxi fares" and meals for prospects. (All three were courting Yasuhiro Ichiba at the time.)

After this scandal, all 12 teams vowed not to continue this practice, and the various scouting groups were supposedly "educated" to not give cash or other gifts to prospects. It is clear, however, that the re-education has not taken hold, and that things continue to be done as they always have.

The problem here appears to be that Seibu knew about this back in 2005, but never said anything.

Full stories from the Japanese press:

• Nikkan Sports (The scoop)
• Nikkan Sports (Substitute-Commissioner's reaction)
• Sponichi Annex (Itoh-kantoku's reaction)
• Sponichi Annex (Names where these players are from)
• Sponichi Annex (Possible penalties)
• Sports Hochi (The scoop)
• Sankei Sports (The scoop)

Most of the articles just say "A-san" and "B-san," keeping the players' names anonymous. Sponichi seems to have figured out who they are, but still doesn't name names. How much longer will these two players remain anonymous?

- Is this a widespread issue in Japan? Doesn't seem like it, but the article mentions some past events with this.

This was a major problem back in 2004, with the whole Yasunori Ichiba situation in which saw Tsuneo Watanabe resign. It also saw the owners of the BayStars and Tigers resign.

I was hoping we would be done hearing of these events with the Ichiba situation, but I guess nothing seems to change sadly. Hopefully the league will take some serious action, but until that happens I won't hold my breath.

I see that one of the players involved is a 21-year old named Yuta Kimura from the Tokyo Gas team. The other player involved seems to be an outfielder from Waseda University.

The full article in English is at JapanBall.com.

Thanks for the information. I've followed Japanese baseball for a while, but more so by watching the standings and stats. This is the first time I've been following much more of the general news out there. Interesting.

Remember when Matsuzaka vowed to only play for the BayStars? Gee, I wonder why he changed his mind and agreed to go to Seibu.

It seems like the same level of corruption and reporting as in Japanese politics and corporations. As in, everyone's doing it, and whenever one party needs some leverage against a rival, they snitch to the media. Then again, competitive people try to get away with whatever they can, right?

More news is pouring out about the whole situation. A Kyodo News report via Japan Ball, said that commissioner Yasuchika Negoro, is prepared to take serious action against the Lions after meeting with owner Hidekazu Ota.

Also, in another related move the Eagles have suspended scouting director, Toru Kusuki, who was involved in Seibu's scouting at the time.

The best English source for all of this scandal news is Garland-san's Japan Baseball Daily. Garland-san's coverage so far:

• March 9 Pacific League Report - This is the first summary of the issue, and Garland-san even throws in a history lesson regarding how the Lions built their dynasty back in the 1980s. Reaction from the amateur organizations and a call to make the draft more like the MLB draft are also reported.


• March 10 Pacific League Report - Valentine-kantoku voiced in his opinion that an MLB style draft would be best, and Nomura-kantoku gave an entertaining, long winded rant about the corruption in NPB. Waseda's head coach had some strong words to say about Seibu.
  
  Then we get another history lesson, and the scandal is likened to the issue of amphetamine and steroid use in MLB. (Did I mention that Garland-san is an excellent writer before?) Along with the history lesson is a cultural lesson. I'd put this one as a "must read" for how NPB (and other organizations in Japan) deal with scandals.


• March 10 Central League Report - The scandal has spilled over to the Central League, where various people are calling an end to the current draft system. Hanshin's Hoshino-SD (Senior Director), when asked if players wouldn't just opt for the MLB if they couldn't choose the team they wanted to play for, suggested setting up more regulations, similar to those that keep players out of NPB for 2 to 3 years if they turn down NPB after high school or college. Garland-san follows that up with a comment that I firmly believe, that most young prospects will more than likely choose NPB of MLB right out of school because they have a better chance of making it to the top in a shorter time frame. North Americans seem to have a hard time understanding that.
  
  Garland-san talks about Yuta Kimura, the Tokyo Gas player who recieved money from Seibu. He was the BayStars' 3rd round draft choise, but refused to join the team. Garland-san reports the the BayStars are currently just watching the situation, but are not yet prepared to take any action against Seibut for potential damages.
  
  We then get another history lesson. (Read Garland-san daily. There's a great wealth of information coming from his Notebook.)


• March 11 Pacific League Report - Hillman-kantoku echos the calls for reform. Then action starts happening within the Seibu organization as scouting comes to a halt.
  
  Garland-san goes into pessimist mode with regard to how things will eventually turn out. I think he sees things very clearly and agree with his take on the issue.

In further news, which I'm sure Garland-san will get to soon, Negoro-acting commissioner told Seibu that their report regarding their internal investigation wasn't acceptable. He asks, why were those two players selected for additional funds? Also, from where in the organization were these funds coming from? If they can't make a proper investigation, then Negoro-san suggests that they should have an independent investigation into the matter. (I was personally impressed with how fast Sports Hochi's investigation revealed who the unnamed players were. And Negoro-san has really grown a spine now that he's no longer officially the commissioner.)

Furthermore, Nikkan Sports (March 13, 2007 paper edition) reports that Watanabe-chairman and Giants' current owner (some insignificant peon not worthy of a rational quote) met with Negoro-san for lunch yesterday, but Nabetsune claims that it had nothing to do with baseball. It's just a coincidence that representative for the team owners, players, and Negoro-san will be meeting today (March 13) to discuss this whole affair. Oh, and by the way, Watanabe stated that he is against the idea of draft reform. I guess we get to see if Negoro-san has developed a spine after all. (Oh, that's right. They didn't talk about baseball, so Watanabe's opinion will have no influence on how things go this afternoon.)

I wondering how much of this was Yoshiaki Tsutsumi involved in? They said the payments have been going on since January 2004, in which Tsutsumi was owner at that time. Tsutsumi didn't resign until sometime in 2004 because of the Ichiba scandal. Also, this echoes the whole Ichiba situation all over again.

He for sure had to know this was going on as he was owner and was the head of the Seibu Corporation. With all this talk, I'm shocked his name hasn't surfaced at all. I really would like to know his involvement in this whole mess.

- Oh, and by the way, Watanabe stated that he is against the idea of draft reform.

Of course Nabestune is against draft reform. He's against anything that would hurt the Giants' chances of getting what they want.

Finally, in another completely un-related measure, the Seibu Group needs to do something in terms of punishment as they don't need another public relations mess after the whole Tsutsumi mess and now this. Some things never seem to change. Though right now until I see something happen is when I'll believe the league will take serious action.

I rather think that Tsutsumi is not a factor anymore. Normally what happens is when the top guy goes, all the rest of the corrupt apparatus he set up survives. No one really digs that deep and tries to remove the whole cancer. Seibu, though, seem to have been spectacularly incompetent and this is why they've gotten caught.

Normally, this kind of thing does not surface, and as Gary points out, there is a lot of evasion (and if you saw some of the robbery that goes on under the name of taxation you'd understand why). A genuine clearout would lead to a lot of people losing their jobs.

I'm aware of how the system works, though is it really the message the NPB should be sending?

Like Gary also pointed out, the phoney investigation by Seibu is more like an attempt to get on the right side of popular opinion on the matter. What information, if any, will be discovered?

Without a real cleanout or action by the league, what will change? And who's to say that this won't continue to keep happening if the league doesn't do anything?

- Normally, this kind of thing does not surface, and as Gary points out, there is a lot of evasion.

I agree, there's a load of evasion in business in Japan and NPB alike. It seems we're always hearing of some kind of corruption daily. Also, like you said, most of it doesn't get reported either. Though like Gary also said, this comes from the "ends justifies the means" attitude by the league. As long as the league accepts the attitude that unacceptable behavior is sometimes neccessary, the league will continue to be plagued with this attitude. I mean, what in the world will change? It's more of the same old-same old attitude we always see from the league.

It's interesting how Japan seems rather Latin in the corruption of officials angle.

You may recall Abe Prime Minister's recent comment about comfort women. The whole society, especially the more conservative elements (including NPB), is full of a kind of mule-headed stuborness. They really don't have any conception of the message they are sending - it's that bad.

Yeah, the system is corrupt, but what do you expect? To put it another way, asking NPB (or MLB or NBA or NFL) to police itself is ridiculous. It's like asking any corporate entity (eg. Enron) to delve into their souls and admit their wrongdoings. There's no incentive to do so if it cuts into profits.

I think, in a twisted sort of way, Seibu and the other ball clubs don't really think they're doing anything wrong. Take the case of Kimura of Tokyo Gas to whom Seibu was providing something like 300,000 yen a month on average. He had a sick mother (who passed away a couple of years ago) and family finances were tight. The Seibu scout who was giving the kid money could argue he was doing it from a humanitarian point of view.

At the moment, the only court that could prosecute the ball clubs is the court of public opinion, and it's more or less up to the media to press charges, so to speak. If they broke any legal statutes that apply to any business, then ball clubs should be tried under a court of law. Anyone knows an independent investigative committee won't cut it, since their findings and recommendations won't have any binding power. The same should go for performance enhancing drugs. There will always be athletes who will take drugs, if it's legal under existing public health regulation. So the only realistic way to curtail the problem is to make it a public health issue and somehow restrict access to drugs. And this is the way it should be since, if a NPB player is taking growth enhancing hormones, who's to say a high school baseball player can't? They're both governed under the same relative laws of the country.

Incidents like the Seibu scandal will continue as long as there are no real legal implications. Senichi Hoshino, Keiji Ohsawa, and Isao Harimoto all said the same thing recently on different television programs: these kinds of cash payments will go on unless there's a substantial effort to reform the draft to a complete waiver system, whether it be a lottery or a reverse-record order pick. Hoshino went on to say candidly that there never will be a satisfactory system for drafting players; you can make improvements here and there, but the system will always be flawed.

Interestingly enough, professional soccer doesn't have a draft system. Prospective players just go to the club that offers the best conditions. It's a pure free market system. Conversely, one can actually argue that drafts violate anti-trust laws.

- Interestingly enough, professional soccer doesn't have a draft system. Prospective players just go to the club that offers the best conditions. It's a pure free market system. Conversely, one can actually argue that drafts violate anti-trust laws.

True. Other sports don't have drafts. And yes, drafts are probably illegal, unless they enjoy an exemption such as the one applying to MLB.

But is a free market sytem applicable to what is essentially an artificial construct - two leagues of a limited number of teams with a fixed schedule, strict rules governing both on and off-field behavior, etc.? One thing I've always admired about the baseball "industry" is its stability and predictability, and a draft system contributes to that.

I once saw an article in the Daily Yomiuri by one of the Yomiuri Shimbun hacks which argued that the draft should be abolished because a free market system would be fairer and more "democratic." Frankly, I think anything proposed by Yomiuri in relation to player acquisition should set the alarm bells ringing.

- But is a free market sytem applicable to what is essentially an artificial construct - two leagues of a limited number of teams with a fixed schedule, strict rules governing both on and off-field behavior, etc.?

Yes, a free market system would perfectly aplicable in this case. Perhaps the question should be, would it be sustainable? I think that it would be as the market is currently under-exploited.

I can see the point of a draft, but it is outmoded in this day and age. Furthermore, abolition of the draft might actually help the teams in the current two leagues improve their marketing and popularity. If teams are forced to think about how they make themselves attractive, I think it can only lead to a raising of standards.

The draft, as constituted, has historically led to constant abuse and distortion of the market. Seibu's recent behaviour would not have occured under a free market system as there would have been no benefit to Seibu to act in that way.

- ... Seibu's recent behaviour would not have occured under a free market system...

Right, so abolishing the draft would make Japanese baseball as clean as sports that don't have a draft - English soccer for instance [Wikipedia - 2006 allegation of corruption in English football]. That makes a lot of sense.

As you point out, there are other forms of corruption in sport, and even draft free sports have some corruption. However, punishments are severe (bans and for clubs the loss of championships). What is important to note is that a free market, whilst it can be abused, is inherently cleaner, more transparent, and less open to corruption than a draft based system.

The removal of a draft system would eliminate the systematic corruption and abuse which exists and has existed in Japanese baseball before. The survival of this far more worrying than the odd examples of corruption that crop up in draft free sports.

Christopher, I think one basic problem with your argument is that a laissez faire approach is virtually impossible in modern professional sports. Sport is an artificial construct and the fact that the market is limited to begin with (a set number of teams, set number of players) means that there are limits on how free the market can become. So it's always going to be a matter of degree.

And if you do abolish the draft, what do you replace it with? A free-for-all, in which the richest clubs attract the best talent? As an example of what can happen when you ease controls on player movement, ever since the Bosman ruling eroded the foreign player limit rule in international soccer, there has been a concentration of talent (and championshops) at the top. I would hate to see the same thing happen in yakyu.

I accept that the draft in its current form is archaic and should be reformed. But to abolish it completely without some sort of control over the excesses of monopolists such as the Yomiuri organization is asking for trouble.

The draft is not the source of corruption. As you acknowledge, corrupt practices exist in many sports. But you might be on to something when you mention harsher punishments. To threaten the loss of a championship or loss of points would go a long way towards stamping out both draft-related and non-draft-related corruption - as would the possibility of criminal indictments or tax audits.

- The removal of a draft system would eliminate the systematic corruption and abuse which exists and has existed in Japanese baseball before ...

Please justify that statement. Detail the systematic corruption. Not the already exposed corruption, but the corrupion you are linking to the draft.

So you want to eliminate the draft system? Let the rich clubs scoop up all the talent?

Mijow - on this we will have to agree to differ. I do not see why a lazy, poor club should get the first pick of the best players rather than a rich but well run and popular club. To my mind the latter should be rewarded for its success by being able to approach the best players. It is up to the poor club to make itself more attractive by improving itself and the successful club should not be penalized for its success. I am convinced that the laissez faire approach is the best for the sports market but can see your point of view.

Cheese, if we look at corruption (and here I should stress I am only talking about the Japan market) there is historically considerable evidence of how the draft system has been abused. In very recent times you have had the Ichiba scandal which affected the BayStars, Tigers, and Giants. In the past Yomiuri were renowned for their abuse of the draft. If we look at the current Seibu case we see high school coaches involved and Seibu actually telling the Waseda player not to say anything. If this isn't systematic I don't know what is.

Christopher, I'm glad you can see my point of view, because for the life of me I can't quite see how a totally free market could apply to yakyu. Exactly how would it work? Your broad, almost Thatcherite sentiments don't provide any insight into exactly how a poor, "lazy" club might lift itself up by its bootstraps.

I assume you're against revenue sharing too, because such a socialist measure would only encourage the malingerers. And I suppose if a club fails, you'd say that was a good thing because they didn't deserve to be there in the first place. We may end up with three or four competitive clubs with the others withering by the wayside, and you'd probably also say that was good, because it would more efficiently deliver the product of baseball.

What about territorial issues? Would you allow clubs to compete in other teams' traditional markets? Your wish to apply free market principles suggests you would. What about poaching players mid-season - any restrictions on that? Any lower age limits - like a ban on signing prospects still in high school?

And I'd imagine you'd drop the foreign player limit if you could, and allow the richer MLB clubs to set up franchises here, making yakyu an integral part of the MLB farm system. Heck, you could even allow them to buy the whole thing.

Look, Christopher, I'd love to agree to disagree, but I'm afraid it's difficult if I don't even know what I'm disagreeing with!

Amend the draft, sure. Make the rules fairer, yes. Stiffen penalties, by all means. But I'd like to see some details of your proposed system before passing judgment. My inclination would be toward tweaking the system so that it works better, not dismantling it entirely.

(BTW, in response to your reply to Cheese, I would like to point out that if anything, it's not the draft itself that has caused the recent trouble, but the kibo-waku system which allows certain players to choose the team they wish to play for. Take that away and there's no incentive for teams to bribe players. Could it also be cultural? There's no draft in politics or the construction industry in Japan, but those two fields sure generate their fair share of corruption scandals!)

This discussion is very interesting for someone like me who has only a passing knowledge (and a pretty poor one at that) of what goes on in Japanese baseball on the off-the-field side.

Assuming the system itself won't be changed, then what's the best possible "tweaking" that can be done to assure less corruption? I know this would only be an opinion (and some of you have talked about different ideas for change), but again if there is no complete overhaul or scrapping of the current system, what can be done?

Thanks for the insights so far. They've been great!

- what's the best possible "tweaking" that can be done to assure less corruption?

Marty Brown thinks this is the way to go. Here's a translation of a Nikkan Sports article with his perspective.

Regarding the ongoing draft issue, Hiroshima manager Brown gave his vote for a complete waiver system. Emphasizing several times that this was only his own personal opinion, Brown commented on the kibo-waku (preferential bid designation [can someone come up with a satisfactory translation of this darned phrase?]) saying, "It's not right for a player to be able to choose the club he wants to go to. It's the clubs that should have the right to choose, because each club has different priorities. I think a fair system is one where the last place team of the previous year gets the first draft pick." Hiroshima as a team is taking a more cautious approach to the growing sentiment towards a complete waiver system, publicly stating that "We do not think it is the best way."

Senichi Hoshino gave a similar opinion on NTV's "News Zero" the other night, saying that he thinks that a lottery is the best draft method.

Okada-kantoku is really mad about the situation, as the following Daily Sports article describes.

Hanshin manager Akinobu Okada (49), in his signature take-no-prisoners style, commented on the draft reform issue on the 13th, appealing for a change to a complete waiver system. Although adopting this system would make it difficult for the club to acquire their choice for this autumn's draft, pitcher Sho Nakata of Osaka's Toin High School, Okada thinks reform is necessary to clean up professional baseball. He exploded, indicating he's sick and tired of a draft system that has become a hotbed of corruption.

"This thing has gone too far! Someone's gotta clear this thing up!" he exclaimed during practice at Nagoya Stadium.

Hearing the conclusions of the club owner's meeting on the recent Seibu bribe scandal held in Tokyo, Okada's tone of voice became irritated and he criticized the lack of motivation towards sweeping reform of the draft system.

As the owners put on hold the decision of abolishing the kibo-waku, the Giants submitted an alternative proposal: a cross-waiver system where the clubs would bid on high school prospects in one order and college/amateur prospects in reverse.

Okada denounced this idea saying, "It’s the same old, same old. You gotta change it to a complete waiver system if you want real equity."

If a waiver system where the last place team gets the first draft choice is adopted, Hanshin will have a hard time obtaining Nakata of Toin High in the next draft. But Okada thinks this is a sacrifice that has to be made if professional baseball is to convince fans that it is committed to dealing with corruption.

"You can't just go around changing the system every time there's a prospective star player in the works. Everyone knows the first and last place teams aren't going to agree on anything about draft reform. The commissioner or someone up there has to make the decision," said Okada, pushing for a quick change to a complete waiver system with no smoke and mirrors.

He shook his head in disbelief at the owners' handling of the situation. "It's totally irresponsible for them to say that they had nothing to do with it. It's everyone's problem. There's no realization at all that this is a problem facing the whole baseball industry."

Furthermore, regarding amateur baseball's desire to abolish the kibo-waku, he said, "The amateur world is making noise, so thing should start moving."

Okada acknowledges the ball won't start rolling unless the twelve ball clubs come to an agreement. However, Okada rants "They've been discussing this thing forever, and look at where we're at. This all happened because it's a terrible system." Reform of baseball is moving at a snail's pace, and that's what's aggravating Okada's tone of voice.

Wow, Okada-kantoku. Word, dude!

(PS Translation comments, recommendations, criticisms more than welcome.)

(PPS Tigers criticisms unwelcome.)

Okay, if its just the current Japanese draft system you're refering to then I concur. It's fundamentally unsound and a joke. Not sure I'd say it's "corrupt" though.

However, I feel a "real" draft is the fairest way to distribute talent. Remember, it's not just poorly managed teams that finish last and who should be getting early picks. Expansion teams and low-revenue clubs simply can't compete. Also I'm a big fan of MLB's luxury tax, it really levels the playing field.

- Football is showing how a free market can operate successfully, and look how successful it is.

If it's soccer your talking about, it depends on what you mean by successful. Most European leagues are dominated by a few clubs. Before a ball is kicked in the English PL season we all know only 3 or maybe 4 teams can possibly win the Premiership. Only 4 teams have ever won it.

Now look at professional sports that have a draft system and where talent and revenue is shared. Notice how many different winners there have been? Much better for the fans.

I'm curious to hear how a small market team can compete with a large market team. Locally, for example, how do you expect a team like Hiroshima to keep up with teams like Hanshin or Kyojin? Even with all the best marketing in the world, if the Carp sold out every game they could still only attract roughly half the capacity of the Koshien or the Tokyo Dome.

Please outline your thoughts.

If we do look at the Premiership - there are enough big clubs which can easily attract the talent they want. Young footballers don't all chose to go to Manchester United. Some chose Liverpool or Tottenham. There are also various cup competitions which have been won by more than the four clubs you mention. Soccer is booming and there are plenty of fans - the English Premiership is global in nature as are Serie A, the Bundesleague and the Spanish league (the name of which escapes me).

Now if we look at Japanese baseball we see, apart from the Tigers, falling crowds (OK a generalisation to some extent) and an encroaching challenge from soccer. J-League is pulling in young people - the ones that should be watching baseball.

The playoffs in the Pacific League have proven to be a success and with the change in the playoff structure we have a seperate cup competition. This is a start and if the Konami Cup is seperated from the Japan Series we have another cup competition. More competitions to win means more competition and more fans. Each club has a chance of winning something.

Now as to why the draft should be removed. Quite simply it is unfair. No other industry expects young people to sign their lives away for nine years without them making the choice. This is fundementally regarding young players as property not people. To my mind that is just not acceptable. Even a shorter period is just as objectionable. The choice of where you work should be yours not an outside organisation. You may not get your choice but at least you will be able to try. Yes most will want to chose the big clubs but this would be a temporary distortion which would even itself out. What should be avoided is young men having their dreams dashed and faced with the choice of either playing for an organisation they didn't want to for nine years or giving up baseball. Remember we are talking about people not commodities.

It would also make the lesser clubs improve their organisation and attractiveness. Sometime back Jim Allen wrote about the parasites of the Central League (OK he included the Tigers which he shouldn't have) but his point had some validity. In the Central League there are three parasite clubs which rely for a lot of revenue on games against the big clubs. They can finish poorly and have the pick of the best players. They have no incentive to improve or to try and attract talent. The draft merely perpetuates this laxness.

You mentioned Hiroshima - they have no competition in their region but they continue to play to less than full grounds. This is their fault not the fault of the other clubs. If they are not prepared to attract fans or to try and improve why should they have the first pick of the best players? The big clubs are big because they try (OK Yomiuri because of its abuse of the draft but also because of its strategy and efforts to attain them).

A free market system might indeed lead to clubs failing but this can only be a good thing. Nothing improves a business more than a threat of failure, and even then it's too late for some.

Mijow - we are not going to agree on this at all. I would be happy to see all the things you suggest (competing in other teams' traditional markets, no restrictions on player movement, etc.). Yes I am against revenue sharing - why should a club that doesn't do anything to earn money get money from clubs which do? Football is showing how a free market can operate successfully, and look how successful it is.

I don't think it's worth our while discussing what is a fundemental difference in philosophy. I think that a laissez faire system with considerably less restrictions is the only correct approach - you don't. As I said, I can see your reasons for disagreeing, I just don't think they're valid. You think they are, so I think we should leave it there. We're not going to convince each other.

- We're not going to convince each other.

LOL. Who said I wanted to convince you of anything? I gave up doing that a long time ago. All I'm doing is putting the other side of the argument for others who might be tuning in.

But just one last comment on how squeaky clean (non-draft) sport is vis a vis baseball, just take a look at this sample of the sort of behavior occuring in the world of soccer.

CNN:

Brazil's Congress launched this week a special investigative commission into corruption within organized soccer, which has been swamped with accusations ranging from tax evasion to mishandling transfers of players, lawmakers said on Tuesday.

IHT:

Federal prosecutors in Brussels have issued an international warrant for the arrest of a Chinese businessman in relation to an alleged match fixing scam in the Belgian league. Officials are also looking at people in England and Finland.

HULIQ:

Prosecutors completed their investigation Monday into allegations of corruption in the Italian soccer transfer market and were preparing indictments against eight people, including former Juventus director Luciano Moggi.

The Age:

Eight South African soccer referees and linesmen appeared in court yesterday over a corruption-cum-matchfixing scandal as more arrests were in the pipeline.

In Central Europe Radio:

Poland's sports minister called on the governing board of the country's soccer federation to resign, after police arrested a board member on suspicion of corruption and match-fixing.

Free market sport in all its glory!

Mijow - if you bother to read back you will see that no-one claimed that non-draft sport was squeaky clean. The difference is in the transparency and the penalties - it is easier to find and deal with corruption. It is also easier to get severe penalties imposed. In all the cases you mention action will be taken and changes made. In Pro Yakyu a cosmetic report will be made and within 2 months everything will be the same again. This is the advantage of the free market.

Well it looks as if we will not agree on this, while most posters and quotes seem to support a complete waiver system in the draft, Christopher supports a system which will see the gap between the haves and the have nots increase.

Christopher you still not have addressed the issue of big market vs. small market clubs. As I said, even if Hiroshima marketed themsleves brilliantly and sold out every game, the limited capacity of their ground still would only allow roughly half the attendance that Hanshin and Kyojin enjoy.

Think in MLB terms, KC and the Yankees. How can such a small market team compete with the Yankees? Revenue sharing, which I should add has been largely embraced by the MLB community, has allowed smaller clubs to compete in the free agency market.

You've got to remember Hiroshima is not Tokyo or Osaka, and despite it being only a one city team, it's still a small city of just over 1 million people. You can only squeeze so much out of the available market. Same applies for Sendai.

I, like most fans, would just like to see a more level playing field.

- Mijow - if you bother to read back you will see that no-one claimed that non-draft sport was squeaky clean.

Excuse me? What's this then?

Christopher: Seibu's recent behaviour would not have occured under a free market system...

Those are your words. No shade of gray there - "would not have occurred." I simply wanted to demonstrate that this sort of thing does occur under a free market system.

You also said this:

Christopher: The removal of a draft system would eliminate the systematic corruption and abuse which exists and has existed in Japanese baseball before.

Again you're absolutely clear - "would eliminate the systematic corruption..." My last post simply sought to provide evidence that the corruption in draft-free sport is also systematic (also systemic).

Both you and I know that no sport is squeaky clean. But your claim that the simple removal of the draft would clean up the corruption in NPB is demonstratably false, considering the experience of draft-free soccer.

I agree with you that harsher penalties are the key - but a draft doesn't get in the way of that. The lack of action has more to do with the unwillingness of the authorites to crack down on corruption. Even if you abolished the draft, corruption would remain if there wasn't also a change in attitude.

- Furthermore, abolition of the draft might actually help the teams in the current two leagues improve their marketing and popularity.

But how are smaller teams supposed to compete by the abolishment of the draft? Teams such as Hiroshima, Yokohama, Orix, etc. are never going to be able to compete with the likes of Yomiuri, Hanshin, Softbank, and the remaining big teams.

Also an important part of the draft is for bottom dwellar teams to be able to re-build through the draft and to be able to compete in the league. Take this away, and sooner or later, were going to find that the league is going to be a collection of maybe 4-5 teams as many teams are going to end up folding due to not being able to compete.

- The draft, as constituted, has historically led to constant abuse and distortion of the market. Seibu's recent behaviour would not have occured under a free market system as there would have been no benefit to Seibu to act in that way.

The kibouwaku system is to blame for the current scandal. As long as it exists, teams are going to abuse it by throwing large wads of cash to entice elite amateur players. Take this away as mentioned above, and there is no incentive to bribe players as players can't choose which team they play with.

Jim Allen pointed out a good point in his Hot Corner piece over at the Yomiuri Shimbun, a free market system comes at a price.

- Yes most will want to chose the big clubs, but this would be a temporary distortion which would even itself out.

If most big name players are choosing to sign with big market teams, then how is the system going to even itself out? If teams like Yomiuri and Hanshin are signing all big name talent under such a free for all system, how is this establishing a competitive balance for the rest of the league, and how can it possibly even itself out?

- They have no incentive to improve or to try and attract talent.

So what is the point of the draft then? Are we going to have a free-for-all system? Because with that, big market teams will just swoop down and sign all the big name talent.

By allowing big teams to acquire top talent at will, all low-market teams are going to collapse as they just don't have the resources and money to keep up with Yomiuri's and Hanshin's. This is a key importance of the draft to help teams develop.

For example, can we can argue that the Carp are able to compete realistically with the likes of the Giants and Tigers? No matter how good their marketing and revenue are they just don't have the revenue of the big teams.

Finally if they were to abolish the draft, as I've mentioned above, all of the big name talent is going to sign with the big teams because these teams would outpay the lower teams by far.

I am afraid there is a big difference in how we interpret the draft or revenue sharing. Neither, despite appearances or claims to the contrary, levels the playing field. All they do is allow poorly run organisations to survive and to leach on other more successful clubs. I do not regard the survival of clubs as a god given right, and I do not think that clubs which cannot improve should have first pick. If a club can make itself attractive to prospective players then it will attract them whether it is large or small.

This needs to be understood fully - players do not sign just for enormous amounts of money. Kuroda didn't leave the Carp for reasons other than cash.

The problem with the draft is that it doesn't encourage bottom dweller teams to rebuild - this is an illusion generated by its proponents. The fear of failure or going out of existence is what induces clubs to restructure and improve. All the draft does is encourage the undeserving to continue in that vein.
Cheese - with regard to Hiroshima, we mustn't think of it as a static situation. If Hiroshima are able to sell out their ground, they will be able to generate more income from ticket sales and from merchandising. Merchandising is especially important as it outstrips ticket sales. As they get more money they have more money to spend. They can spend wisely and buy players who may not be big names but can make a large contribution. Enough to put them into the playoffs and give them a chance to win the Japan Series. This will bring more revenue and more attention. They can also use the money to build a bigger stadium to attract more fans. They can do what Hanshin have done and lock in their region so that they do not just rely on Hiroshima city.

What has been shown by teams like Lotte and Nippon Ham is that you don't necessarily need to have a lot of big names. An attractive small team is often chosen by a lot of young players who want something different.

John, you have been complaining about the lack of marketing nous in the Japanese baseball world. The draft is part of the reason for it. In a free market world clubs have to improve and IIRC no football club in England (and I am sure someone will prove me wrong here) has actually gone under. Someone has always stepped in to save it. This is what would happen in the Japanese baseball world as well.

Perhaps the kibo-waku system could be saved if signing bonuses were fixed (in addition to taking a harder line on bribery as mentioned before).

The idea that players should be able to choose whom they want to play for seems more rational and human than the current system in the major leagues where a young recruit can be stuck playing for his famorite team's rival, in a thoroughly unfamiliar city, hoping that he'll be traded before free agency comes many years later.

Eixing [sic?] signing bonuses and perhaps even minor-league salaries would eliminate the leverage that big-money teams have when attempting to sign undediced amateurs and when attempting to influence the choice that they "desire" to play for.

We also have to look at the causes of the disparity in income. Is Hiroshima poor because they don't know how to manage their club, or are they poor because teams like the Giants make sure that no television revenue, etc., flows to them?

- I am afraid there is a big difference in how we interpret the draft or revenue sharing. Neither, despite appearances or claims to the contrary, levels the playing field. All they do is allow poorly run organisations to survive and to leach on other more successful clubs ...

Ouch, bit of a callus Gordon Gekko-like statement. Tell that to the fans who passionately support a team who doesn't have the revenue (or potential revenue) that a team like Yomiuri does.


- Kuroda didn't leave the Carp for reasons other than cash.

Come on Christopher, an extraordinary example. Do you want me to list all the players who left their clubs for larger salaries in the last 10 years?

- They can also use the money to build a bigger stadium to attract more fans. They can do what Hanshin have done and lock in their region so that they do not just rely on Hiroshima city.

They are building a new modestly-sized stadium that opens in 2009. They're being realistic and know the size of their market better than you or I. How many people do you think a small city like Hiroshima can regularly attract to games? What size stadium do you suggest? How would you bring in over 50,000 a game to 70 games a year in a city like Hiroshima? I'd love to hear it!

As for the draft vs. a free market, get used to the draft, it's staying! Everyone supports a fairer draft system. The debate should center around what kind of draft system should be adopted.

Mijow, the examples you name relate to different abuses which you lump together in an attempt to confuse the issue. They do not identify a systematic abuse but that there are people who will abuse the system if money is involved. They were revealed and the systems changed to eliminate the chances of a repeat. So of course the Seibu incident would not have happened under a free market. There is no incentive to offer under the table payments if the player can take whatever club he wants when he wants. Negotiations with several clubs can be conducted in an atmosphere of openess. This sort of thing does not happen in a free market system.

There is no real drive to change the system in Japanese baseball. By removing the draft you remove the source of a lot of the corruption. Your attitude seems to be - well corruption happens elsewhere, because it does we shouldn't do anything to improve things here. This is the attitude of the owners and is very sad.

Cheese - you need to add a bit of depth to your analysis. It's all very superficial at the moment. A club is not a charity for a few die hards - it should be a living part of its community, and this is why J-League is taking fans from baseball. They have realised that all fans are important.

Every club will have totally committed fans, but what about all the others? They should have the opportunity to watch their club do well. A well run club offers this. I am sure you can name many players who went to clubs for big salaries, but not everyone does. Players are people who have different motivations - Ogasawara went to the Giants because his wife wanted to return to Tokyo. Kokubo because the president of Daiei wanted to do a favor for Nabetsune. They may be going to a big club, but not for the salary. It works the other way, and Kuroda is just the most recent example. Players are people and they do things for different reasons. Certainly money may be a major factor, but it isn't the only one.

It is not necessary for Hiroshima to match the level of Tigers or Giants to be successful. It can be a well run small club which generates a healthy profit. It can represent its region and draw healthy crowds. It can merchandise successfully and make itself an attractive option. It can grow over time and may never be as big as the Giants or the Tigers, but that won't stop it being successful. I will repeat, not everyone will want to play for the big clubs. There are many motivations for playing for a club.

As for the draft staying - yes for the moment it will stay, but as more young players rebel against it, it will change and eventually disappear, and this will be a good thing.

- Cheese - you need to add a bit of depth to your analysis. It's all very superficial at the moment.

You're a riot Christopher. I'd take offense if I didn't know your style of personally attacking everyone's "lack of understanding" or "poor analysis." Comedy but becoming tiring.

Try using substance to back up your claims and maybe others will listen.

- As for the draft staying - yes for the moment it will stay, but as more young players rebel against it, it will change and eventually disappear, and this will be a good thing.

Oh will it now, very bold prediction.

Come on Christopher, it won't hurt to say youre wrong!

Christopher, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. What is "fair" for those who work hard compared to those who don't is a difficult issue. I took offense when Lee Iococa (sp?) stood before Congress and complained, "it's no fair, they [the Japanese] work harder" in an attempt to increase tariffs on Japanese cars. What kind of arguement is that? It sounded like a girl in my freshman algebra class complaining, "that's no fair, he studies" to my setting the curve too high for her tastes. (Why did I feel like that was an insult? Something's seriously wrong with such a society where so many people think like that.)

However, I strongly disagree with the way you're presenting your case. When you say,

- So of course the Seibu incident would not have happened under a free market.

I think, "why 'of course'?" It isn't clear to me that anything would become more transparent under a free market. Free market companies make back room deals all the time to try to get the best price. If they adversise their price in the open too early, someone else will come along and out bid them. Microsoft, twice convicted of abusing their monopoly on desktop computers, constantly uses secret deals with OEMs to see to it that any of their competition stays off of your average computer.

Please, learn to use these three letters: IMO (you don't need to be Humble). It is your opinion that the under the table money scandal wouldn't happen in a free market. No reason you've given so far has me or anyone else convinced of that. Everything you've said supporting that idea is an opinion. If you state it as so, instead of as a matter of fact, then you won't get so many people angry at you, pointing out how very wrong you are (which you aggrivatingly push aside and claim you were talking about something else).

Everyone finds analogies in fields that they understand. Some in soccer, some in MLB, me in the computer world. Every analogy (like a comparison between the evils of Yomiuri and Microsoft - both are obsessed with crushing all opposition no matter what the cost is to their respective industries) is going to have its shortcomings but still make a valid point. Please try to focus on the point being made, not where the analogy isn't the same, as such doesn't necessarily discredit the analogy.

One tool you often use is the Tigers' extraordinary marketing astuteness. I still have visions of a perpetual door mat tiger skin rug with the oendan threatening to strike if the Tigers didn't do something to improve, with fans throwing radio cassette players onto the field in protest of giving up a home run. In my opinion, the Tigers have a huge following, but their marketing skills have little to do with it. (But that's an arguement for another thread, another time. It's just another example of one of those things that you take to be a given fact that others do not.)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but your arguments are driving me to re-evaluate why that is.

Cheese - when you refer to only one reason in an argument (for example a player selecting a club, the time factor in marketing) and ignore all other factors we can say that the analysis is superficial. As for personal, no I don't think so, but you don't think your answers through and it shows. I would suggest you take a look at Mijow's posts. I may not agree with him, but he argues from depth and he thinks his argument through. It is not personal to point out the flaws in your style, though I do apologise if I have caused you offence.

Michael - the reason under the table deals for young players wouldn't happen is that they wouldn't be needed. If a top paying club can trump the secret payments with big open offer no other club is going to waste money on under the table payments. The mere fact that these payments do not happen in the free market world should be enough though. This is the advantage of the free market.

Of course other types of corruption happen involving other channels. We are too hung up with thinking of baseball as something special to the detrement of the business factor.

Actually, I do find you offensive and argumentative and I find constant flaws in your arguments. I just get angry when you attack me personally as you have continued to in your last post.

Don't know when to give up do you?

For a start, which player has ever said they've left a club for more money? It's always "family reasons" or for "new challenges." Of course most players are motivated by money and I certainly don't judge them for that. I'm just as interested in my financial future as the next guy. Now who's being superficial?

Christopher, let me give you a piece of advice. You sound like someone who's very young and I want you to consider this carefully. Don't send an e-mail or post a message on the internet that you're not prepared to say to someone's face.

I pride myself in the years of experience I've had playing and watching the game. If you're perpared to continue calling me shallow and "lacking depth," you should be prepared to say that to my face. If this is the case, I will pass on my contact details to the moderator and I will be more then happy to give you the opportunity.

Cheese - perhaps I ought to correct your misconceptions. I am 45 years old. I have considerable experience of managing businesses at the highest level and working as a consultant to various companies. These include sports clubs, so I have hands on experience of what I talk about.

When I say your arguments are superficial this is a statement about your arguments. It is not a statement about you. You and I have never met, and whilst I may have thoughts about what kind of person you are, I do not let these intrude into my posts. These are only based on what you write.

One thing that working in business has shown me is that it is never "just about money," and quite often money is the least factor in any business decision. As one CEO of my acquaintance said, "Money is just a way of keeping the score." The same with sports people - money may play a part, it may be the main factor, but it is never the only factor. If you take a moment to think about it I'm sure you'll see my point. I do not know your business experience (and maybe it is quite extensive), but your posts do not seem to indicate an appreciation of this side of baseball to any great degree.

If you wish to meet for a pleasant chat then I have no objection. And now I will let my thoughts on your character intrude - if you have any idea of something more than a civilized discussion I am not interested.

Michael - many thanks for the indulgence you have shown Cheese and myself.

Christopher, I appreciate your most civil post to date.

I'm concerned however that someone with such life/business experience is so condescending on this board. Don't take my word for it. You can read the above comments or other posts where you seem to constantly upset people with your "opinions" which are stated as fact. As one poster once commented it's "Christopher vs. the world." Doesn't the way you seem to be at at odds with most people on this board concern you?

Christopher, it's easy to contradict everything anyone says (just for the sake of it) or sink to attacking their character. Your style maybe. However, I'll take the moral high ground here.

Another bit of advice, when you start personally attacking people in a debate, it does look as though your back is against the wall; i.e. grasping at straws, nothing of value to add. Just so you know how it looks.

As someone said, do you wonder why you make people angry? Maybe time for instrospection.

Christopher, I addressed the nature of your posting etiquette as being derisive and anti-social. If you are indeed in an upper management position, I certainly hope you don't speak to your staff that way.

- And now I will let my thoughts on your character intrude - if you have any idea of something more than a civilized discussion I am not interested.

Oh my gosh! "Thoughts on your character." Again, judgemental assertions. Christopher, I'm a family man and one of the most non-aggressive people you could meet. I'll happily meet you at a game, I'll even buy you a beer!

Cheese - if you post in a public forum you must expect challenges. This I expect, but I also bounce back with counter arguments. It is the nature of debate and I think that some people have difficulty with this. I would say it's different approaches. How one perceives something varies.

I believe that we are both labouring under misconceptions, you that I make personal attacks, me that your posts are agressive and one dimensional. Just different misconceptions and let's leave it at that.

We have both been guilty of trying to judge the other from their posting style, making judgemental assertions, and ignoring the content of the post. And yes, meeting you for a beer would be a nice idea.

Yep, I agree there are things said in a public forum that misrepresent people. I was happy to see you take me up on the offer of a beer! That's really decent of you.

I go to a lot of games a year so let's catch up then.

Actually, I belong to another Tigers forum that organizes catch-ups at Tigers games. How about this forum? Any Tigers fans out there who want to get together for a game?

Christopher, let's take this off-line and spare the others our banter.

You can e-mail me to bwwft022 at yahoo d0t co d0t jp.

Now I feel bad that everyone is ganging up on Christopher because I'm the one who mentioned the idea of a free market in the first place. Let me just add a few words in defense, as a fellow Tigers fan (but Christopher, you do need to brush up on your people skills a bit).

The arguments here seem to focus on how clubs with the most financial clout will inevitably attract all the best players. Consequently, this would go on to make the league lopsided and unfair, with the richest team winning the pennant all the time, hoarding all the popularity.

The only thing is, has this happened? Let's look at the Yankees and the Giants. We know that for the past several years, that's what they have done, collecting the best players in the league. But has that led to success? In the case of the Yankees, one could argue that it hasn't worked out. Obtaining Randy Johnson, Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, Hideki Matsui, and so on, hasn't exactly revived the Golden Years of the '90s. Looking back in time, you could say that at the time when they were winning pennants, they were doing it with players they developed within their own system. Over the past several years, it doesn't seem to be the case that the team with highest payroll wins the World Series or the Japan Series.

What about popularity? Is the richest team potentially the most popular one? This is where the issue of the draft comes in, that the best prospects will migrate to the Giants or the Lions. But in this day and age, can it still be said that the Giants are the most popular team in Japan, just because of the clout and outreach of the Yomiuri media juggernaut? Consider that TV ratings for Giants games were so low last year that Yomiuri has decided that they won’t go over the allotted 2 hour time frame and extend broadcasts. This just goes to show that even Yomiuri doesn't have that much confidence in their own team (while Sun TV in Kansai will air an entire Tigers game even if it takes 5 hours - well, yeah, it's because they don't have anything else to broadcast).

I think that in this multi-media age, where everyone has attention deficit disorder, it's just becoming harder and harder to monopolize popularity. Senichi Hoshino himself said as much when he stated that the days when the Giants had a hold on baseball fans is over. He even went on to say that he laments the fact that the Giants are weak; in his opinion, a strong Kyojin is good for baseball. This is from the Giants' public enemy number one.

As I posted before, it's not like the old days in Japan where the choices were only baseball and sumo. Now Yomiuri has to compete with the likes of Mao Asada and Shunsuke Nakamura. I remember when Fuji TV's late night sports news summary was named "Pro-Yakyu News." Now it's named just "Sporto," and more times than not, Japanese baseball is relegated to a few minutes at the end of the program, with international soccer dominating the headlines. Professional baseball as a sport has declined in Japan, and this has pulled Yomiuri down along with it. Sadly, Nabetsune doesn't realize this because he's living in the past.

Another issue is whether the draft is really accurate in predicting a player's performance in the pros. I don't think past data will support this. Have the first pick draft choices in Japan really done exceptionally well? In some years they do, and in some years they don't. What about in the States? With all the talent flowing in from Latin America, Asia, Australia, Canada, does the MLB draft really have any substantial meaning? Doesn't MLB have a problem when it comes to domestic talent? In other words, isn't MLB actually competing with NBA and NFL in terms of drafting potential players? C.C. Sabathia pointed out the other day that African American athletes don't find baseball attractive anymore [ESPN], and this should be a dire warning sign.

One of the beauties of sports is when the underdog actually wins. Baseball is a team sport, meaning you can't rely solely on individuals, superstars. You have to function as a team. I think this is something that the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters, the Chiba Lotte Marines, the Detroit Tigers, and the St. Louis Cardinals have recently taught us. It's a fabulous thing when you see a nobody turn into a somebody, and I think this is how the best teams are made. A team can't just buy players, it has to develop them over time and I believe the clubs that have the patience and devotion to do this will be the clubs that win out in end, not the ones who have the fattest wallets. In one sense, this is what most fans want to see.

So what does this have to do with a free market system? Nothing really, ha, ha. Just wanted to point out that Big Money doesn't necessarily buy a team Happiness. I agree that the draft is here to stay, and it should be reformed to make things more equitable, but does the draft really have that much meaning?

Christopher and mijow, you guys should form a manzai duo.

- Christopher and mijow, you guys should form a manzai duo.

What an excellent idea. But I want to be the tsukomi with the plastic hammer.