The Yomiuri Giants or New York Yankees

A normal Yomiuri team would be OK, but wouldn't do all that well against playoff caliber teams. If we go to the all-time teams, Yomiuri would keep pace at 1st and 3rd, be outclassed in the outfield, second (Joe Gordon) and catcher. Depending on your view of Jeter's defense, they might or might not be outclassed at short. That leaves pitching, and while the Yanks aren't best known for their pitching (they didn't get the nickname Bronx Bombers for nothing), I doubt they'd trail significantly in that department since they could call on Ford, Rivera, et. al. Even if the Giant pitchers are better, I can't see them closing the outfield, 2b and catching gap by much.

Jim Albright

Yomiuri would keep pace at 1st...

Oh was a great player but I wouldn't put him in Gehrig's class by a long shot. 1.080 career OPS for Gehrig vs. an .896 career OPS for Oh (using your projected MLB stats). Using career highs, Gehrig produced a 1.240 OPS in 1927 compared to Oh's 1.013 (once again projected) in 1974. In fact, the Iron Horse's worst season between 1927 and 1937 was still better than Oh's best.

I'm not belittling Oh's accomplishments; Lou Gehrig is just the greatest first baseman of all time -- with all do respect to Jimmie Foxx.

I would agree about Oh versus Gehrig, but then you balance Nagashima versus Nettles or whomever. I think it comes out as pretty much a wash. I did say first and third.

Jim Albright

Gotcha. I read first and third as Yomiuri would keep pace at 1st and Yomiuri would keep pace at 3rd.

For ha's, let's see how the pairs compare using career numbers (with the Japanese players' stats projected using your handy system):

Nettles .248/.329/.421
Nagashima .285/.347/.463

Gehrig .340/.447/.632
Oh .279/.412/.484

So that's an average OPS of .915 for the Bronx Bombers compared to an .853 for the Kyojin.

I miscalculated Nagashima's career numbers. His projected stat line should read .276/.340/.444, not .285/.347/.463. I used the multipliers from your 2003 Japanese Possibilities article rather than your Oh and Cooperstown Part II essay.

So that's an .840 OPS versus a .915 OPS.

While Gehrig is arguably the best first baseman ever, his stats are inflated by the high offensive totals of his era, and you must account for that. That reduces (but does not eliminate) that gap between him and Oh.

Jim Albright

I'd use Win Shares if I could, Jim. Seriously, era- and park-neutral numbers are available for both Nettles and Gehrig but are the projected numbers for Oh and Nagashima equally unbiased? I doubt an adjustment of Gehrig's numbers would make up the 75-point difference in OPS between the pairs, anyway.

Yeah, win shares would be better, but at least I don't have that kind of data for Japan.

Jim Albright

If you used the Oh article conversion, they are corrected oh HR for their home park. I have not made adjustments to other data, nor is there an era adjustment, though the 60's and 70's would push the O-N cannon forward. I was doing it off the cuff, and I maintain I am close with the Oh/Nagashima being relatively even with Gehrig/Nettles. Even if the O-N cannon doesn't quite measure up, it is darn close. In the comparisons of the all-star teams, it pales in comparison to the outfield, where Godzilla couldn't make the outfield if we included Ruth (DiMaggio and Mantle being the others). Even if we left out Ruth, Godzilla would struggle to beat out Henrich. And Godzilla is the best of the Giant outfielders.

Jim Albright

What about Gehrig/Boggs? Wade had his best years with the BoSox but he did produce a .922 OPS for the Yanks in 1994.

I agree about the outfield.

When you're talking all-time teams, you've got to make a choice -- one year bests, some longer period, or a career. One year bests are really not appropriate, and 3 or 5 year periods don't really solve the problem of a guy who really didn't have the impact on the franchise others did getting a spot. Careers are more the way to go, and by that standard, Boggs clearly does not belong. Besides, if you go by single years, then everybody has to be able to do that. Fluke years can have an enormous influence on single year selections.

Jim Albright

Career stats would be my first choice. My question is one of eligibility. Boggs spent five reasonably productive years in a Yankee uniform -- I brought up his .922 OPS to illustrate that point, not to suggest that single season stats should be used -- including 1996, when he finally got his ring. Should only players who played their entire careers with the Yankees or Giants be eligible? That seems unfair to free-agent era players. For instance, Nettles played in 22 seasons, only half of those for the Yankees. Just curious, the Bombers lineup would certainly survive without Boggs.

Can you honestly act like Oh's stats aren't "inflated" by Japanese stadiums? They are small to begin with, and in the past they were surely the same or smaller. Yankee Stadium is actually smaller now than it was when Gehrig played.

- [Japanese stadium] are small to begin with, [...]

This is a popular myth perpetuated by people who want to continue thinking that MLB is superior in every way to any other baseball league. Please review this thread for stadium comparisons.

The only point you make which is factual is that Japanese stadiums used to be smaller, and Oh did benifit from the "lucky zone" era, I'm sure. But these critisisms were also covered in Albright-san's Oh essays [Link - BaseballGuru.com].

I can't tell if you're a troll perpetuating myths or if you just aren't familiar with Japanese baseball. I hope you find the above links interesting and informative if the latter is the case.

Well, you can show any thread you want, but that does not change the fact that the Tokyo Dome has maybe the shortest power alleys in pro baseball. I've been to all of the Japanese stadiums and most of the major league parks as well. Now in the 1920's stadiums may have been a few feet shorter. In some places they were fairly consistant for the most part. As were Japanese stadiums as well. But these Japanese stadiums were also much shorter and, at least in the Central League, still are. Though I still can't explain the HR difference, maybe pitching style?

But my point is Jingu is small, Hiroshima tiny, and Koshien about 20 feet short down the lines. Tokyo Dome is 350 at best to what should be the 2nd deepest part of the field. Your beloved BayStars are short down the lines and smaller in general. Nagoya is the only average size stadium in that league.

The Pacific League Kintetsu is rather small. The Seibu Dome plays like it's small maybe due to not being fully enclosed? Fukuoka is an average size park, Chiba is my favorite Stadium, it is average size but plays big due to the wind. I've never been to Green Stadium but on The T.V. it looks a tad small.

This is in no way to say the Major Leagues are superior. A couple years ago they found that Camden Yards was something like 10 feet shorter than posted.

Really, unless we restrict the Yankee all-time team to the NPB era (1936 and on), this is terribly unfair. Even so, the Yanks should come out on top, but without Ruth, Gehrig, and a few early pitchers, the matchup would be a lot closer.

Jim Albright

An all-time Yankee team without Ruth and Gehrig strikes me as blasphemous. How about an all-time team from 1930-1996? =)

A lineup with Ruth, Mantle, DiMaggio, Gehrig, and Berra would be terribly unfair to any team. Perhaps the Giants would fair better against the Kansas City Royals...

Excuse me both, but baseball is much more than a player by player comparison. If you compare the Atlanta Braves' players versus Florida Marlins' players in 1997, Atlanta will win, but Florida was the World Champion. If you compare the rosters in 2002, the Yankees win, but the Anaheim Angels were the champions. Remember the winners of the 1988 World Series? The underdog Dodgers won over the super power Athletics. Remember the winners of the 1990 World Series? Gotcha! The Cincinnati Reds beat again the big orange-green machine.

If the Yankees and Yomiuri play in a seven game playoff, it will be the best team in the diamond, not the best in newspaper or computer, that wins.

Thanks. Excuse my poor English. [Cleaned up a bit by Admin.]

====

Exusenme ambos, pero el beisbol es mucho mas que comparar jugador por jugador. Si ustedes comparan los Bravos de Atlanta contra los Marlins de Florida en 1997, Atlanta habria ganado todo, pero la historia dice que los Marlins fueron campeones mundiales. Si comparamos los rosters de las mayores en el 2002, los Yankees habrian ganado nuevamente, pero los campeones fueron los Angelinos de Anaheim.

And how would you judge which team is the best on the diamond, Enrique? It's kinda hard to have an all-time squad from both teams actually play each other. Sure, anything can happen, but I'm more interested in what would probably happen.

An example of the lineup the Giants would be facing. Anyone care to take a shot at the all-time Kyojin 9?

SS Derek Jeter (R)
RF Mickey Mantle (S)
LF Babe Ruth (L)
1B Lou Gehrig (L)
CF Joe DiMaggio (R)
C Yogi Berra (L)
DH Reggie Jackson (L)
2B Tony Lazzeri (R)
3B Graig Nettles (L)

My article on the Japanese Franchise All-stars [BaseballGuru.com] selects the following team (I'm not going to select a batting order):

C Masahiko Mori
1B Sadaharu Oh
2B Shigeru Chiba
3B Shigeo Nagashima
SS Masahiro Kawai
OF Hideki Matsui
OF Wally Yonamine
OF Haruyasu Nakajima
DH Tetsuharu Kawakami

P Victor Starffin
P Masaaki Saito
P Takehiko Bessho
P Hideo Fujimoto

MGR Kawakami

These are based on a whole career, so that's why Sawamura isn't there. The outfield could substitute Isao Shibata or even Shosei Go.

Jim Albright

This team will win a playoff versus a Major League all-star team, but you never know. Baseball isn't basketball or soccer. If you put the Boston Red Sox and Pedro Martinez in the diamond, maybe they can beat the best Yankees of all-time. You never know.

Let's not forget Reggie Jackson, Lou Gehrig, Joe Di Maggio, Roger Maris, Thurman Munson, Don Matttignly, Dave Weinfleid, Whitey Ford, Yogi Berra, Goose Gossage, Phil Ruzzoto, Lefty Gomez, Derek Jeter, Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Marino Riveria, and Jose Conteras is now a Yankee. We also signed Hideki Matsui. Then don't forget Jason Giambi, Mike Mussina, David Wells, David Cone, Catfish Hunter, and of course Babe Ruth the greatest baseball player ever. They all wore Yankee pinstripes. The next big thing will be Alfonso Soraino. Let's not just talk about Lou Gehrig. Some better players that play for us now are Andy Pettite, Orlando Hernandez, Chris Hammond, Steve Karsay, Jorge Pousada, Bernie Williams, Robin Ventura, Nick Johnson, and Raul Mondesi.

I don't think Raul Mondesi, Steve Karsay, Chris Hammond, Orlando Hernandez (maybe Cuba), Jorge Posada, Robin Ventura, David Wells, Nick Johnson, etc. would come close to making any all-time team.

C'mon people. Who are you kidding? No all-time team can beat the Yankees. And you can replace Reggie Jackson with Jason Giambi.

- No all-time team can beat the Yankees.

I don't know about that. Koufax and Drysdale gave the Yankees fits in 1963 on their own. Combine them with Hershiser, Vance, and Valenzuela and the Dodgers could beat anybody. Same holds true for a lot of other teams. Start putting together some all-time rosters and you'll see what I mean. Take my beloved Cubbies, for instance.

C  Johnny Kling
1B Mark Grace (or Cap Anson depending on time frame)
2B Ryan Sandberg
3B Ron Santo
SS Ernie Banks
LF Billy Williams
CF Hack Wilson
RF Sammy Sosa

Bench: Tinker, Evers, Chance (player-manager), etc.
SP Three-Finger Brown, Pete Alexander, Greg Maddux, Hippo Vaughn, Fergie Jenkins

What was I thinking? Scratch Kling at catcher and replace him with Gabby Hartnett. Also, Kiki Cuyler would get the nod at DH.

I am not a Yankee fan, but I truly believe that the all time New York Yankees team is clearly superior to the all time Yomiuri Giants team. C'mon, guys, there should not be much of a comparison between these two.

Just to tell you that you forgot Andre Dawson and Rafel Palmerio. I'm sure you didn't know Palmerio. He played for the Cubs in the begining of his career.

Very familiar with both, actually. Dawson was a great player but he doesn't beat out Williams, Wilson or Sosa in the outfield, and I'd love to put Palmerio at 1st but he just didn't spend enough time in a Cubs uniform. If time didn't matter, Roger Hornsby would replace Sandberg at 2nd.

[Sorry this has gotten so far off topic, Michael.]

So who's the 2nd best MLB team and the second best Japense team ever? The second best MLB team ever would have to be the Cardinals. They have won the second most World Seris with their 9 championships.

But still, the greatest North American sports teams ever (by "North America" I mena Canada and U.S.A.) would have to be the Montreal Canadiens, New York Yankees, and Boston Celtics, I think the Lakers fall into that category, so do the Packers, Cowboys, and the Yomiuri Giants.

- But still, the greatest North American sports teams ever (by "North America" I mena Canada and U.S.A.) would have to be the Montreal Canadiens, New York Yankees, [...], and the Yomiuri Giants.

Back to geography 101.

Don't you think the Yomiuri Giants matchup to those teams?

For fielding, the Giants are better than Yankees -- but for batting, the Yankees are better than Giants. But for a few players on Giants are very well liked; their 1st basemen, cather, and pitcher!

Can you matchup Nagishima to Mickey Mantle, Sadhara Oh to Babe Ruth, and Hiyomara to Lou Gehrig?

Well, they both won a bunch of titles for their teams and have a lot of statistical achievment. But experts say Japenese Baseball comapred to the MLB is just a bit more competive then North American triple A ball.

Look, they both have dominated there leagues for years, and both are super good franchises. But I still think to determine who's better, the Gianst and Yankees should play each other every third year in an exhibiton game.

The Yankees' all-time roster would look like this.

C Yogi Berra
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Don Matingly
SS Derek Jeter
3B Wade Boggs
OF Joe DiMaggie
OF Mickey Mantle
OF Babe Ruth
DH Reggie Jackson

I totally disagree with the selection of Wade Boggs as the Yankees' all-time 3rd baseman. He played less than 5 seasons in the Bronx. The better choice would be Graig Nettles in my opinion.

Also, Donnie Baseball did not play 2nd base....

2B Don Matingly

LMAO. Mattingly played in 1,714 games for the Yankees -- and only one of them at 2nd base.

Hey guys, the all-time Yankees stuff may be fun, but this is a Japanese baseball forum. My vote is, if the post doesn't refer to Japanese baseball, it shouldn't make the cut for this site. I'm sure there are other places where the all-time Yankees team discussion is quite appropriate.

Jim Albright

Thanks Albright-san. I've been rejecting a lot of posts in this and the similar best MLB thread lately. I've tried getting the threads on topic with some best Japanese team posts, but it doesn't seem that they received any attention.

I think that what's happened is that a lot of MLB fans have found the site looking for information about Japanese players. That means that there are more people who want to contribute, but only have knowledge about MLB players. Furthermore, because this site is moderated, they feel safer that their posts aren't going to get, as one reader told me off-list, "'_____ sucks!' 'Who are you to talk about _____? Get a life!' 'You're a *#@&%!!!' and all that." Funny how I felt bad making this a moderated site after the first racist attacks on it, yet now it seems that the site is all the better for it.

I think I will raise the bar on what's on topic for these two threads, though. I was hoping suttle hints like "Yet Another ..." subject names would get the idea across, but I guess not.

You are right, man. This site is great for people like me who love baseball and live so far away. My house is in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic (one full day from Japan), but I like good baseball, like Japanese ball, without problem for country play this. You have done a great job with this site and deserve respect. Nowdays, baseball doesn't allow racism. No more. All players and fans are the same around the world. I feel bad that some fans send hateful messages to your site. I back you.

Now in spanish (my own language).

Tienes razon por escribir lo anterior. Este site es grandioso para personas como yo, que aman el beisbol y viven lejos de japon. Vivo en Santo Domingo, Republica Dominicana (a un dia completo de Japon), pero me gusta el buen beisbol, como es el beisbol japones, sin importar de que pais proceda. Tu has hecho un gran trabajo en este site y mereces respeto. En estos dias, el beisbol no admite racismo. No mas. Cada jugador o fanatico es igual en todo el mundo. me siento mal porque algunos fanaticos han enviado mensajes racista o molestosos. Te apoyo.

Enrique Rojas

I appreciate your insight Enrique! There are great baseball and baseball players around the world considering that professional baseball has been in existance in Latin America since the late 1800s and in Japan since the 1930s.

I know that I just put him there, to allow Gehrig at 1st, and Reggie Jackson at DH, and Ruth, Mantle, and Di Maggie in the Outfield.

Yes it is fair to comapre Nagishma to Mantle, Oh to Ruth, Matsui to Di Maggio, and Kiyohara to Gehrig.

Nagashima, Matsui, and Oh versus Gehrig, Ruth, and Dimaggio: defently the Yankees.

Giants -- we have a higher pouplated city meaning more fans.