WBC: Japanese Offense
Discussion in the Open Talk forum
Comments
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: torakichi | Posted: Mar 16, 2006 5:55 PM
| HT Fan
]
- I don't understand how Tomoaki Kanemoto can be left off the team if they want to win.
The Tigers were uncooperative with requests for its players to be released for the WBC.
The Tigers were uncooperative with requests for its players to be released for the WBC.
Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Mar 16, 2006 8:56 PM
| HAN Fan
]
Are you sure about that? Everything suggests that the Tigers players were ignored by Oh. The Tigers management are on record as saying they raised no objections and Kubota also said that he would even play as a reserve to get a chance.
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Yakulto | Posted: Mar 16, 2006 10:08 PM
| TYS Fan
]
- Everything suggests that the Tigers players were ignored by Oh.
Maybe that's just what you'd like to think Christopher - some kind of anti-Hanshin Tigers conspiracy.
You are right however, it makes no sense that no Hanshin players made the team (especially Kanemoto). But what torakichi says makes more sense as an explaination.
Maybe that's just what you'd like to think Christopher - some kind of anti-Hanshin Tigers conspiracy.
You are right however, it makes no sense that no Hanshin players made the team (especially Kanemoto). But what torakichi says makes more sense as an explaination.
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Mar 17, 2006 8:50 AM
| HAN Fan
]
No Yakulto, this is not what I think - this is what is recorded as actually being said. The Hanshin management publically stated that they had never had any objections to their players being included in the WBC. I was asking if there was any other evidence to indicate that this was wrong and that the Tigers management did lean on the players. At the moment, the evidence supports an anti-Tigers conspiracy not the management's refusal.
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Yakulto | Posted: Mar 17, 2006 11:05 PM
| TYS Fan
]
Haha. Yes, Christopher, I know how much you value your "evidence." However, in this case any anti-Tigers conspiricy ideas just seem a little far-fetched. Yes, the management have said that they didn't object, but they would say that. Maybe they didn't want to interfere with their Spring training plans - especially after being humiliated so badly by Lotte last year?
Have any of the star players (aside from Kubota) come out and commented on the situation? If not, doesn't that seem a little strange?
torakichi, what say you?
Have any of the star players (aside from Kubota) come out and commented on the situation? If not, doesn't that seem a little strange?
torakichi, what say you?
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: torakichi | Posted: Mar 18, 2006 1:25 AM
| HT Fan
]
As little as possible on this one (laughs). I might get in trouble for saying this, but here goes.
The way I see it, Hanshin's success has been a case of the whole team being much greater than the sum of its parts. Together they have dominated the Ce League, but not many individuals have sought me out (figuratively, of course) to try and convince me that they are more worthy of a place on the Japan team than the Matsunakas and Ichiros and Nishiokas and Watanabes and Matsuzakas.
Whether it was a conspiracy or the Tigers telling Oh to go away, not picking many Tigers was the right decision - for Japan and the Tigers.
Maybe they should have just picked the Tigers (or Hawks) and put 'em in Japan uniforms.
The way I see it, Hanshin's success has been a case of the whole team being much greater than the sum of its parts. Together they have dominated the Ce League, but not many individuals have sought me out (figuratively, of course) to try and convince me that they are more worthy of a place on the Japan team than the Matsunakas and Ichiros and Nishiokas and Watanabes and Matsuzakas.
Whether it was a conspiracy or the Tigers telling Oh to go away, not picking many Tigers was the right decision - for Japan and the Tigers.
Maybe they should have just picked the Tigers (or Hawks) and put 'em in Japan uniforms.
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Mar 18, 2006 9:09 AM
| HAN Fan
]
But Yakulto, without evidence there is only speculation. Now you may speculate, but to assert that your speculation has real value over the available evidence is going a bit too far, don't you think? Maybe the Tigers' management are just saying that they didn't object; but by saying that they are laying themselves open to challenge. No-one has challenged them yet at all. And it was only after this statement that Oh included several Tigers' players in the reserves.
So far you have offered only speculation and this, whilst possible, doesn't trump the evidence. Furthermore, I think you don't understand the depth of rivalry between the Tigers and Giants. Oh is an ex-Giant and possesses all the Giants prejudices against Tigers.
Now, as for Team Japan being the right selection - I am afraid not. They have made the semi-finals through others' efforts, not their own. They have not been in control of their own destiny throughout the tournament. They have lacked players who can knock in runs, they have made too many defensive errors (especially against the USA), and their captain pratically guaranteed that Korea would beat them twice when he opened his mouth. Matsunaka has been his usual self in these short tournaments. Maybe Kanemoto and Imaoka would not have done well either, but at the moment they are both showing excellent form.
The upshot is that Japan's progression to the final doesn't depend on how well they play but how well Korea plays. This is not selecting the right team.
So far you have offered only speculation and this, whilst possible, doesn't trump the evidence. Furthermore, I think you don't understand the depth of rivalry between the Tigers and Giants. Oh is an ex-Giant and possesses all the Giants prejudices against Tigers.
Now, as for Team Japan being the right selection - I am afraid not. They have made the semi-finals through others' efforts, not their own. They have not been in control of their own destiny throughout the tournament. They have lacked players who can knock in runs, they have made too many defensive errors (especially against the USA), and their captain pratically guaranteed that Korea would beat them twice when he opened his mouth. Matsunaka has been his usual self in these short tournaments. Maybe Kanemoto and Imaoka would not have done well either, but at the moment they are both showing excellent form.
The upshot is that Japan's progression to the final doesn't depend on how well they play but how well Korea plays. This is not selecting the right team.
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Yakulto | Posted: Mar 18, 2006 12:50 PM
| TYS Fan
]
- But Yakulto, without evidence there is only speculation.
This is indeed true. But it can be fun to speculate, and indeed it is one of life's joys. You should try it sometime, from beind those black and white spectacles of yours.
This is indeed true. But it can be fun to speculate, and indeed it is one of life's joys. You should try it sometime, from beind those black and white spectacles of yours.
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Mar 18, 2006 2:17 PM
| HAN Fan
]
Speculation is fun - agreed, but only within certain limits. You don't belive in UFOs, the Bermuda Triangle, the Loch Ness Monster, and that Swallows will win the pennant, do you?
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Yakulto | Posted: Mar 18, 2006 3:54 PM
| TYS Fan
]
- Speculation is fun - agreed, but only within certain limits. You don't belive in UFOs, the Bermuda Triangle, the Loch Ness Monster, and that Swallows will win the pennant, do you?
Haha. I can dream!
Haha. I can dream!
Dreams of Grandeur
[ Author: Guest | Posted: Mar 18, 2006 6:45 PM
]
Maybe you won't have to dream. Yakult's batting and pitching is solid. I think it will come down to them and Hanshin in the Central League.
The BayStars are going to improve, Dragons decline, and the Giants and Carp will suck.
The BayStars are going to improve, Dragons decline, and the Giants and Carp will suck.
Re: Dreams of Grandeur
[ Author: Yakulto | Posted: Mar 18, 2006 10:15 PM
| TYS Fan
]
I think that's a fair assesment. I especially hope the Giants continue to suck!
Re: Dreams of Grandeur
[ Author: BigManZam | Posted: Mar 19, 2006 1:43 AM
| CLM Fan
]
The Giants won't be so bad if the pitching steps it up once the season starts. However, they will if Yoshinobu and Abe don't heal up completely. Their batting order is really solid if those two can be healthy.
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Yakulto | Posted: Mar 23, 2006 10:43 AM
| TYS Fan
]
Seems to me that team Japan did pretty well in the end without those big name Tigers.
Re: Tiger Scarcity
[ Author: Something Lions | Posted: Mar 24, 2006 12:37 AM
| SL Fan
]
Maybe Japan could've dominated the competition if the lineup included Kanemoto, Akahoshi, Matsui, Iguchi, and Johjima. But then again, if they were on the team we wouldn't have seen the likes of Tamura, Nishioka, Kawasaki, and Satozaki playing so well.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: BigManZam | Posted: Mar 16, 2006 8:25 PM
| CLM Fan
]
Nishioka and Kawasaki were phenomenal. I don't know what more you wanted out of them. They have good personalities and work very hard. I can't say the same about Ibata. If it weren't for Nishioka's home run in the 9th, Japan wouldn't have had any momentum to go for a sayonara win.
Also, Yoshihito Ishii? Have you even been following NPB for over a year? He was good for most of the year in 2005 and then just tanked towards the end. Plus, his defense isn't exactly Golden Glove level. He'd be lucky to even be on Seibu's starting lineup this year, let alone Japan's national team. There were enough unproven one year players on the team, anyway.
The only problem I had with Oh's batting order was Fukudome constantly getting at bats. He was absolutely AWFUL. Oh had way too many "full swing" hitters in the order. This is why they never scored runs. Ogasawara isn't batting like his .360 self anymore. He proved that last season. Him and a few others just aren't seeing the ball well right now at all. I know he had a few good hits and a couple crucial hits, but his at bats were mostly terrible. He's way better than that. Imae, who is my favorite player, didn't look good at all. I don't know what he was swinging at in his first at bat.
Overall, the batting order just didn't have enough balance. You'd have a couple great contact batters get on, then the full swingers would either strike out or pop up a shallow fly. I'm not surprised by the frustrating way they'd get runners on and never convert them.
Also, Yoshihito Ishii? Have you even been following NPB for over a year? He was good for most of the year in 2005 and then just tanked towards the end. Plus, his defense isn't exactly Golden Glove level. He'd be lucky to even be on Seibu's starting lineup this year, let alone Japan's national team. There were enough unproven one year players on the team, anyway.
The only problem I had with Oh's batting order was Fukudome constantly getting at bats. He was absolutely AWFUL. Oh had way too many "full swing" hitters in the order. This is why they never scored runs. Ogasawara isn't batting like his .360 self anymore. He proved that last season. Him and a few others just aren't seeing the ball well right now at all. I know he had a few good hits and a couple crucial hits, but his at bats were mostly terrible. He's way better than that. Imae, who is my favorite player, didn't look good at all. I don't know what he was swinging at in his first at bat.
Overall, the batting order just didn't have enough balance. You'd have a couple great contact batters get on, then the full swingers would either strike out or pop up a shallow fly. I'm not surprised by the frustrating way they'd get runners on and never convert them.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Guest: kappa | Posted: Mar 16, 2006 9:49 PM
]
Ibata, Araki, Kawakami, and Iwase (all from Doragons) refused to play for the national team saying they had no confidence to play well in March.
Fukudome (another Dragon) also once refused, but later he was selected.
Oh might have a promise with Fukudome to play him as a regular.
Fukudome (another Dragon) also once refused, but later he was selected.
Oh might have a promise with Fukudome to play him as a regular.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: BigManZam | Posted: Mar 17, 2006 6:44 AM
| CLM Fan
]
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the info.
Yeah, a lot of these guys were not in their usual form. Matsunaka couldn't find his home run stroke at all. I think the pitchers were mostly in great condition, though. Only guys I'd say aren't in top form right now are Fujikawa and Hiroyuki Kobayashi.
I was really impressed with the way Fujita went after batters. He really freaked out Seung Yeop Lee and Ken Griffey Jr. with those brush back pitches. I liked that a lot.
Yeah, a lot of these guys were not in their usual form. Matsunaka couldn't find his home run stroke at all. I think the pitchers were mostly in great condition, though. Only guys I'd say aren't in top form right now are Fujikawa and Hiroyuki Kobayashi.
I was really impressed with the way Fujita went after batters. He really freaked out Seung Yeop Lee and Ken Griffey Jr. with those brush back pitches. I liked that a lot.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Guest: buymeabeer | Posted: Mar 17, 2006 10:54 AM
]
- He really freaked out Seung Yeop Lee and Ken Griffey Jr. with those brush back pitches. I liked that a lot.
The one in reference to KGJ, that wasn't a brushback pitch, he straight threw at his head.
The one in reference to KGJ, that wasn't a brushback pitch, he straight threw at his head.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Krishna | Posted: Mar 17, 2006 9:10 AM
]
I thought I made it clear I haven't followed it too long. Since about midway through 2004. One thing Ishii does well is walk. At least in the American game, a player who has a good walk rate and plate discipline isn't usually a fluke.
Yeah, I cannot complain too much about Nishioka and Kawasaki, they did well, but that isn't the point. Oh built his team on pitching and defense so I guess it's fine.
Is Wada an enigma in the outfield or something? He's someone who was on the team and has been consistent the last three years. His K:BB the last 3 years is under 1.00, which is exceptional.
Yeah, I cannot complain too much about Nishioka and Kawasaki, they did well, but that isn't the point. Oh built his team on pitching and defense so I guess it's fine.
Is Wada an enigma in the outfield or something? He's someone who was on the team and has been consistent the last three years. His K:BB the last 3 years is under 1.00, which is exceptional.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Guest: kappa | Posted: Mar 17, 2006 2:43 PM
]
Kazuhiro Wada is in a bad condition because of kidney stones. I don't know his current condition, but this is the reason Oh didn't use him.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Guest: npb over mlb | Posted: Mar 17, 2006 2:49 PM
]
I think if Hideki Matsui, Johjima ,Iguchi, and maybe Kaz Matsui? would have joined the Japan team, Japan wouldn't have had the offensive issues displayed against Korea both times.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Something Lions | Posted: Mar 17, 2006 6:12 PM
| SL Fan
]
If Wada's in such bad condition, I'm surprised he hasn't been replaced on the roster.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Mar 24, 2006 11:49 AM
]
- Overall, the batting order just didn't have enough balance.
Overall, I say the lineup did quite fine, Japan as a team went:
Avg- .312
HR- 10
RBI- 57
H- 84
2B- 9
3B- 3
SB/SBA- 13/15
Runs- 60
BB/K- 30/41
OBP- .384
SLG- .480
OPS- .864
SF- 6
HBP- 5
I say that's pretty well for Team Japan, above average. Overall, Team Japan hit very well. Of course some struggled, but what can you expect? Some players will struggle.
Overall, I say the lineup did quite fine, Japan as a team went:
Avg- .312
HR- 10
RBI- 57
H- 84
2B- 9
3B- 3
SB/SBA- 13/15
Runs- 60
BB/K- 30/41
OBP- .384
SLG- .480
OPS- .864
SF- 6
HBP- 5
I say that's pretty well for Team Japan, above average. Overall, Team Japan hit very well. Of course some struggled, but what can you expect? Some players will struggle.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Something Lions | Posted: Mar 24, 2006 3:23 PM
| SL Fan
]
Japan hit well against China and Taiwan, as well as Korea in the semi-finals and Cuba in the finals. Otherwise, my impression is that the team didn't hit well. So the team didn't hit well in 4 out of 6 games against tough competition. But then again, Taiwan can be tough competition, so maybe they should be thrown into the mix as well. If you just ignore the China game for obvious reasons, then maybe the overall stats don't look so bad either.
Re: WBC: Japanese Offense
[ Author: Guest: npb over mlb | Posted: Mar 25, 2006 5:23 PM
]
Japan also hit well vs. Mexico. And Matsunaka had the most hits in the WBC, and most runs, but only 2 RBIs and 0 HR.
About
This is a site about Pro Yakyu (Japanese Baseball), not about who the next player to go over to MLB is. It's a community of Pro Yakyu fans who have come together to share their knowledge and opinions with the world. It's a place to follow teams and individuals playing baseball in Japan (and Asia), and to learn about Japanese (and Asian) culture through baseball.
It is my sincere hope that once you learn a bit about what we're about here that you will join the community of contributors.
Michael Westbay
(aka westbaystars)
Founder
Copyright (c) 1995-2024 JapaneseBaseball.com.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License.
Some rights reserved.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License.
Some rights reserved.
Admittedly, I am highly uneducated on Japanese baseball. For the American game I am a person who follows the statistics and understands them quite well. I don't know how big the "moneyball" concept of OBP (even though moneyball =/= OBP) has reached the Land of the Rising Sun. From a statistical standpoint, I don't think that Japan did a good job constructing their team. The pitching was phenomenal and did a great job, can't fault them there. Although I would have brought in Otsuka in the 8th today and the 9th against the U.S.
First, I don't understand how Tomoaki Kanemoto can be left off the team if they want to win. He was one of the top 3 hitters in Japan last year yet could not make this team. It's not like he was bad in 2004, where he was top 10. Yes, I've heard the rumors about his nationality, but still.
Secondly, why did Kazuhiro Wada get just 2 AB in all of the WBC? He had one of the best translations for Japan for BaseballProspectus but couldn't crack the lineup? For the last 3 seasons he has been a consistent hitter for average, on base, and power. By my infant calculations he was probably #6, #7, and #4 hitter overall in the Japanese leagues the last 3 years. Hitoshi Tamura is probably the fifth best offensive option available to Japan after Kanemoto, Wada, Fukudome, and Ichiro.
Looking at his two middle infielders I can see Oh got Nishioka and Kawasaki for their speed to play "small ball" with Ichiro. So much for that idea, they hit 3 home runs. However, I don't understand why either is starting? They have not been the best middle infielders. Hirokazu Ibata would have been the perfect #2 whole hitter between Fukudome and Ichiro. Like Fukudome, Matsunaka, and Wada he has a good walk rate and hits for average. He would have been perfect. For 2B Yoshihito Ishii looked good. The last two years he's been a lot like Ibata. I know he had a down season last year, but Hiroyuki Nakajima gives them some power out of the SS position. I don't know how well Ibata, Nakajima, and Ishii are defensively compared to Nishioka and Kawasaki, but Japan needed the offense.