Reactions to Postings?

Hi Jim,

For Tigers fans, Igawa's inconsistency and sometimes seeming not to care about his performances has eliminated a lot of good will. Whilst I have come to believe that this is based on over-expectation due to the freak year of 2003, the fact remains that no-one is particularly bothered by him going. Hoshino has also indicated that he thinks that Igawa should be allowed to depart, and his word is gospel among Tigers fans. The upshot is that there is very little, if any, resentment or feeling that he is deserting the team.

- For Tigers fans, Igawa's inconsistency and sometimes seeming not to care about his performances has eliminated a lot of good will.

Among some perhaps. But he is still a popular player here in Kansai. They're not sentimental about it, but he still enjoys a lot of goodwill.

- Whilst I have come to believe that this is based on over-expectation due to the freak year of 2003, the fact remains that no-one is particularly bothered by him going.

Not true. There are many fans who are worried about it. The main reason cited is that his absence will leave a big hole in the pitching staff.

- Hoshino has also indicated that he thinks that Igawa should be allowed to depart, and his word is gospel among Tigers fans.

Again not true. Hoshino is highly respected as the manager who finally brought the club a pennant, but that's as far as it goes. We do have minds of our own, you know.

- The upshot is that there is very little, if any, resentment or feeling that he is deserting the team.

And nor would there be. Everybody I know down here in Kansai is genuinely keen to find out how Igawa performs in the majors, and this would apply to most players. I know that when Shinjo and then Yabu went over, the main feeling was pride, and the hope that they'd do well as a representative of the Hanshin "family" so to speak. That's what I'm detecting now.

Without wishing to start an argument, you do seem to be a bit out of touch. Frustration with Igawa has been building since 2004 and most fans are indifferent to him. They care about his good performances, it is true, but have had enough of his poor performances. You could even say the ground for his departure has been well prepared. So even though he will be a big loss, it isn't generating the buzz that, say, leaving in 2004 would have. His wish is well known and accepted.

You also under-estimate the influence and importance of Hoshino. He is not just a manager but an icon to Hanshin fans. Just look back to the fuss created when the rumor started that he would go to the Giants. Compare that to the fuss now over Igawa. If Hoshino had gone to the Giants it would have been an enormous blow to Tigers fans, but Igawa going has nowhere near the same impact on them. As for Shinjo and Yabu - yes there was pride, and then they dropped off the radar screen. If Igawa goes to the Yankees you might get more attention, otherwise he also will drop off the radar screen (except for NHK).

Well my intention wasn't to start an argument - I accept that you always seem to see things differently.

I'm basing my comments on the large circle of Tiger fans I speak to in Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe, and yes, the Tiger bar I frequent near Koshien. Out of touch? That's a bit rich. We're going to have a hearty laugh about that down here.

Christopher, you need to understand that the Hanshin fan base is diverse, and not everybody marches lockstep to the same beat. You have your own opinions, and you are obviously influenced by those you meet in Tokyo and on your occasional trips to Kansai. Fine. No problem with that. I simply hear different things from where I am. And this (as always) is what I'm trying to point out.

We both feel a necessity to challenge each other - that much is clear. However, certain things are givens. Hoshino is revered because of what he did and because of what he did after he gave up management. If you really can't see this then you are missing something fundamental.

Igawa will be missed, but not to any great degree because most fans are sick of his antics. The standard joke at the beginning of the season was that, yes he would be posted - to the Taiwan league. Players come and go, but the team goes on, and this is what most Tigers fans think.

- ...Hoshino is revered...

Of course, but he is not some sort of god or something. Hanshin fans don't necessarily take what he says as gospel. We do have our own opinions, and many of us disagree with Hoshino from time to time. (And we're not slow to say so either.) That's what I notice down here, in the heart of Tiger territory.

If you don't realize that, then you're the one who's out of touch.

- Igawa will be missed, but not to any great degree because most fans are sick of his antics ... and this is what most Tigers fans think.

As I said, we're a diverse bunch, and I really can't see how someone in the capital would know what the majority of Tigers fans think. Nor would anyone, of course, as we're geographically dispersed. The fans you talk to appear to think that way, but the fans I talk to have a completely different opinion.

Certainly the sentiments you pick up are held by a number of fans. But it's obvious that you are talking to different people. I had a conversation just the other day with a group of fans, fans who were torakichi long before you or I ever came to these shores, and they still hold a certain affection for Igawa. I'm not making this up.

- We both feel a necessity to challenge each other ...

Yes. I don't know what it is. Maybe if you couched your opinions in less absolute terms then I wouldn't challenge you quite so often. Instead of "All Tiger fans believe..." try "The fans I've been talking to say..." or "In my opinion..." And instead of "All oendan do such and such..." try "The oendan I belong to does this..."

Just a thought.

- Maybe if you couched your opinions in less absolute terms then I wouldn't challenge you quite so often. Instead of "All Tiger fans believe..." try "The fans I've been talking to say..." or "In my opinion..." And instead of "All oendan do such and such..." try "The oendan I belong to does this..."

Never have truer words been written on this site.

I agree. Christopher, rather than accepting the fact that other people have different points of view, essentially tries to discredit everyone else. A shame considering he comes from a non-baseball background and could learn a lot from some of the regular posters on this forum!

- Igawa will be missed, but not to any great degree because most fans are sick of his antics.

What antics?

And let's be realistic, although Hoshino is highly respected by Tigers fans (yes, legendary in some circles), he's got a longer association with the Dragons. An "icon" amongst most Hanshin fans? Sadly out of touch.

The Dragons days are behind him and he is now associated with the Tigers. So this is not really relevant anymore, and Hoshino has leveraged his influence as a Tigers representative, not an ex-Dragons representative. No one really refers to his Dragons days anymore - the Tigers were what catapulted him to his current level.

Mijow,

A few points about oendan which you might not be aware of. The oendan communicate a lot and they visit each other frequently. We entertain many oendan from Osaka, and we talk about players. So you can rest assured that I have a very good idea of what the Osaka fans think. Of course there are differences, but you mustn't think that your group is representative, as I've noticed that you don't tend to be political. This whole thing is very political.

("You" below is used in an impersonal sense, not to refer directly to one individual.)

If you analyze a complex issue you need to learn to look at other sources than the people you talk to - Tigers bulletin boards, the press, etc., to get an idea of what the general opinion is. Basing your research on your circle (and we normally tend to associate with people who share our views) will give you an understanding which may well vary from the general opinion.

(End of impersonal part.)

If you recall, you presented those interesting figures on the sale of Giants goods in Kansai, but they couldn't really be used to say much because they were too incomplete. It is the same with this issue, you need to tap several sources to get a true view.

- A few points about oendan which you might not be aware of...

There's that tone again. I am well read, I talk to many people, I watch, listen, observe. I've been asked to join an oendan - actually to play the trumpet for one of them. I drink beer with them. I've been on victory cruises with them. Don't worry, I'm well aware of how they operate.

- If you recall, you presented those interesting figures on the sale of Giants goods in Kansai

And if you recall, my point was a very limited one - that Giants goods did sell well in Kansai. I demonstrated that, and I wasn't going to post a full set of accounts to satisfy your extreme skepticism.

But back to my main point: You do realize what I'm saying, don't you? You act as if you are the sole authority on the Hanshin Tigers on this web site, and you're not. You appear to have learned a lot over the years, but you don't know everything, and that is sometimes painfully obvious to those of us who have been around a bit longer than you. I'm sure it's not intentional on your part, but I think you should be aware of how you sometimes come across. I do chuckle sometimes at the stuff that you write, so it is entertaining in a way.

Anyway, I've said my piece, and that's all I'm going to say on the subject for now.

Mijow - you seem to have problems with the fact that other people may be more expert than you and be able to gain access to more and better sources of information than you. Now some things like whether to take Igawa off will always be a matter of opinion where we will argue till we are blue in the face without convincing each other. Both of us argue forcefully, so it doesn't look good to lecture on how to write nicely.

Other issues aren't a matter of opinion. For example, in a different thread you stated that the fact that the sight lines at Osaka dome were bad was an opinion. It isn't. Either the sight lines are bad or they aren't - that is a physical fact. Your point about Giants goods wasn't about selling well but linked to how many people in Kansai support the Giants. This is why I was skeptical - you need more information to do an analysis like that and derive that conclusion from it. It's not about printing accounts but other information.

There is a difference between being trained to analyze things and looking around and reading. It is all very well looking at raw figures and attempting to guess from them, but you need to be able to look at the underlying trends. This is the fundamental lack in a lot of your posts (the Giants goods sales figures for example). It does not make your posts stupid or unintelligent (mostly they are quite the opposite), but it does make them wrong. If you do not know how to analyze or let your prejudices get in the way, then all the experience in the world will not help you from drawing the wrong conclusion.

OK. We're getting way off topic here, and degrading into an "I said ...," "You said ..." argument trying to promote each other's opinion as being more correct. There is no correct opinion, only opinion.

The basic answer to the original question is that most people are happy and proud to have so many Japanese players make it in the Major Leagues. This is apparent reading the newspapers and talking to everyday Japanese (not necessarily strong baseball fans). Is there concern about losing talent? Of course there is. Such opinion is printed in Shukan Baseball (a weekly magazine about baseball) on occasion and is heard in the voice of those same proud everyday Japanese who only follow baseball very loosely when they follow up saying that they're happy for So-and-so by asking how the team will fill the hole?

I observed long ago that Japanese have an ability to hold two seemingly opposing points of view about a subject without any Western-thinking dualism getting in the way. There's no need to set a value judgment on some things. Posting isn't good or bad in any absolute way. It has its pros and cons, the biggest pro that the player gets to pursue his dream, challenge himself. That's what many people would like to do themselves, so they look at that aspect of it and wish them the best, privately wishing that they had the guts to do the same in their line of work.

Finally, I'm still bewildered by the statement that Hoshino no longer has the image of a Dragon. His stint in a Tigers uniform was short. When I see him out of uniform, the image of him skippering Chunichi is still the strongest image in my mind.

- I observed long ago that Japanese have an ability to hold two seemingly opposing points of view about a subject without any Western-thinking dualism getting in the way. There's no need to set a value judgment on some things.

Indeed, that's quite true, and think I'm picking up some of that. People seem to quite happy for Igawa to pursue his dreams, and then at the same time worry about the hole left in the pitching staff. They know NPB is losing talent to the majors, but enjoy watching these guys on the evening news doing Japan proud.

There's always another angle.

How do you guys think Kei Igawa will do in the majors and for what reason?

What an arrogant post! So what makes you more of an expert than Mijow?

- No one really refers to his Dragons days anymore

What? How many months have you been following baseball? I'll let you in on a secret, people actually do! Thousands of Dragons fans and fans of baseball itself! Folks who have been following baseball for their whole lives!

Cheese - let me ask you a question. Where does Hoshino's current influence come from? The fact that he was a successful player for the Dragons or that he delivered a long awaited pennant to one of the biggest clubs in Japan? Quite simply he could not have garnered the influence and power he has now at the Dragons. It is part of what got him to this stage, but it was the Tigers pennant and his dramatic retirement that gave him the springboard to his current status.

Hoshino is a very influential man in Japanese baseball, but this is based on his role with the Tigers. This is his power base, and this is why his Dragons' years are only a footnote now.

A recent example of his influence; when Murakami first started touting his plan for Tigers he visited Hoshino to get his support. Opposition to Murakami rapidly took off after Hoshino made clear he was against it.

Don't twist things around buddy!

You said "No one really refers to his Dragons days anymore."

I beg to differ, and like I said, so do many Dragons fans! I didn't mention his current "status," you did! The fact is he is remembered fondly by many Dragons fans. Of course he is also currently seen as a Tigers identity as well, who argued that point? Not me!

It seems to me you like an argument, so I'll take your post with a grain of salt.

As for Iwamura, I think most Swallows fans aren't particularly resentful that he's gone.

Sure, he was a popular figure on the team (particularly amongst the female fans), but those who liked him wish him well for his MLB adventures. There was a significant presence in Jingu who didn't care for him anyway (his outlandish [for Japanese] style/appearance, his lack of common sense at the plate leading to him usually being among the top tier of "stikeout kings" in the CL, his tendency to try to make the flash play in the field, instead of the simple, leading to a fair few errors), some of who, dare I say it, are glad to see him go.

I think he will be missed, especially in terms of his power hitting plus the fact that he was decent in the field when he put his mind to it. But as you correctly pointed out, the Swallow's didn't exactly have a stellar 2006 with him on the team, so his loss shouldn't affect Yakult's performance in 2007 too much.

As one who has lived in Osaka for years, most folks I encounter could care less about Igawa. They don't think he will succeed, they've just about written him off. I think he has a good chance of making do in the Bigs.

I just read all the posts in this thread. After many a thread read and ignored, I now have to say:

Christopher, please depart your private mind garden ASAP. You don't know Osaka at all, so please don't speak for it.

I'm leaving town for the weekend, but I'm bound to return to wordy responses that support my statement.

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Westbaystar-san needs to make this more of a site with an exchanging of ideas, at natural speed. If I check this once a day, I must have reached the end of the internet. Interaction, confrontation, it's all natural, we all love baseball. I hope.

What are you talking about? Please go back and re-read my posts. You are saying exactly the same thing about Igawa that I have been saying. It is never wise to make ill-informed assumptions about how well someone knows a place until you have all the information.

What I sort of wonder is how Japanese fans would react if they read the large number of websites over here where fans go on and on about how "we should go sign some more cheap Japanese players to fill out our roster," and how "I don't see why any of the top Japanese players would want to stay in Japan when they can earn better money in America and play real baseball," or "I really don't care if Japanese pro baseball exists, because there will always be a talent pool over there and the U.S. will always get their best, at some time or another."

Are they aware of these viewpoints that Americans have of Japanese baseball? I often get asked why I care so much about a bunch of guys who are never coming to the MLB, which led to someone saying: "Deanna's problem is that she cares about Japanese baseball, whereas the rest of us just care about a few select Japanese baseball players."

My experience talking to fans in the stands in Japan about players who might come over here was sort of a feeling of "shouganai," like it was inevitable and they just accepted it - and hoped the players would do well in America and make them proud. Almost like sending their kids off to college or something - "come back with your degree or don't come back at all!"

Personally, I worry about the fact that, by definition, a league that sends its top players to the MLB and takes in their castoffs is a minor league.

You sound like a Mets fan circa 1960's - caring about the Mets when they are never going to win a pennant.

The fact is that few North American fans know NPB and couldn't care less. Add to the mix that the average baseball poster is 15 years old, or acts like it. Add a touch of ethnocentrism, geographic distance, and viola, scintillating baseball posts.

When the team owners quit worrying about fielding Japanese teams rather than a baseball team in Japan and compete for the world's best players, they might have a league where the fans can worry less about it being minor league, IMHO.

My reaction to some of the above postings is just ... can't we all, just, ahem, get along? (citation, Rodney King). Geez, we all love this great sport and have so much more in common than not. Oh well.

I do know a lot of torakichi who, like myself, will miss Kei Igawa in Kansai. He's got a world of talent and has had some amazing outings for Hanshin. As an American I'll be happy and proud to see him in the USA, too, even as I feel saddened that he won't be pitching at Koshien. A lot of conflicting feelings - just like any time a favorite player gets traded. Maybe that's a good sign? I for one am certainly viewing baseball internationally which I never did (or could do) as a child.

NPB's been taking in MLB castoffs for ages, so that's nothing new about the "minor league" status.

But at the same time the level of Japanese baseball has been steadily rising.

Many league translations place NPB right in between MLB and AAA levels. But with NPB's thinner rosters, the top NPB players are definitely MLB caliber. So, uh, I see your point about losing top players.

The thing is, many don't go, and still many more do come back. It'd be a problem if every single top player started going to the majors. Is that day not far ahead? (Sort of like European hockey, or South American football, I suppose.)

- Is that day not far ahead? (Sort of like European hockey, or South American football, I suppose.)

Neither the European hockey leagues nor South American soccer leagues are structured as much as the NPB. While some big stars are leaving, it isn't a mass exodus either.

As long the league keeps player development and has good young talent it will never become a feeder league. Also, it if did, it would easily damper relations between the two leagues, possibly leading to a rethinking of the posting system. This would serve to the disadvantage of MLB.

One thing is for sure, like Bobby Valentine has said, there needs to be more minor league teams and leagues, as 2 leagues and 1 minor league team isn't enough, and dampers player development.

There's a thoughtful article in USA Today, which has some comments on the posting system: Rising sons make grade in majors.

Nice article, putting into perspective the variety of experience NPB players have had in the USA, from Irabu to Ichiro and now Matsuzaka.

Somehow I do not fear a mass exodus of quality NPB players to the US, but I hope the international day comes when star players of whatever country do not think of the American major leagues as the supreme stage for their skills.

OOOOK, I got about halfway through this thread, got sick, came back from the toilet, ate lunch, and I can still say that it's pathetic. Really.

It seems that two unnamed (but we all know better) sports enthusiasts (untamed fanatics perhaps?) have a beef here. Let's just imagine it this way. We all know each other personally and really well, have beers together at our local gaijin bar after work on Fridays, and awww shucks, we used to work at Nova together so we're all great friends. Let's put this thread in the context of a bar and all of a sudden you have two friends smiling, pointing and jeering one another while you read the same stuff that you have read above.

Now granted that I'm not a Tigers fan, and all I know about them is that they have pinstripes and I don't like 'em. I know enough about baseball, but not enough to hang with some of the big-guns on this website. But Mijow, I live in Kobe and I'd love to get together with you and chat about baseball. My friend who knows everything (and I mean everything) about baseball went home last August and now I'm stuck explaining the foul ball rules to a group of Scots feigning interest.

My point? being able to seriously talk ball with a group of baseball fans (not just team fans, but actual baseball fans) in this country isn't something that you see on every corner. That's why I love me some japanesebaseball dot com. I used to feel "frustrated" with others on this site, but get over it. Nobody is attacking you, so don't do it in return (I don't care who started it so don't point fingers). This isn't supposed to start a war, and, as far as I can see, aren't you cheering for the same team? For the love of Zeus get over it.

Either way, I digress and get back to Jim's question.

As for the first one, I'd like to look back to the time of Ichiro and Taguchi on Orix. I'd have to look at attendance records before and after they left and for the purposes of this posting, I can't be bothered. But if I take an any given day at Skymark or Osaka Dome, I would guess that they have gone down. They now offer half price days at the stadiums every now and again and they gave something away (t-shirts, hats, fans, clappers, thundersticks, towels, etc.) at every game last season. It seems like they are scraping the bottom of the barrel for a fan base, and may be going the way of the Hawks and saying "enough is enough, we're leaving." Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime it's gonna hit them harder than they wanted to. (On a random thought to my head, where did Livedoor want to put its team before Rakuten got the green light?)

Igawa? Couldn't tell you anything. Sorry.

Let's play nice boys, Mijow, hit me up for that beer.

Buymeabeer,

Sorry to make you sick! You must really have a weak stomach because this thread is nothing compared to some of the stoushes we've had in the past.

Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said, and I wish these discussions didn't end up the way they did.

All I've ever done is point out that there are other ways of looking at an issue. That's all. I think if you read some of the other threads you'll know what I mean.

So about that beer - sounds great. Maybe sometime in the new year. Just a little too busy at the moment.

Better lump the Canadians into your closing tiff. Last time I checked, MLB had an outpost in Toronto. It will take a selective rising of the tide and a tsunami of money in some other market before MLB is dethroned as the supreme stage for baseball.

Protectionism, in the absence of an export driven industry, results in an inferior product. The answer is baseball in Japan, not Japanese baseball. That is the international day you seek, not a protectionist utopia for Japanese only.