Hara Should be Fired

I have to agree with you. Hara-kantokou has been doing many bad removes this year.

Disclaimer: I'm a Hanshin Fan and can't stand the Giants or Hara, and am quite pleased to see the Giants' horrible season.

Having said that, in the game you're referring to in particular, you must take into account that Hayashi is a rookie and had thrown 91 pitches. No, that's not too high a number, but Hayashi has been very promising, and why risk an arm injury for a win that's fairly meaningless at this point? The Giants are 17 games out and only 2 games over .500. Does one win make such a difference?

Keeping their young pitcher on a leash is a good thing for the future. Kudoh and Kuwata are more or less done, and the Giants will need to rely on youngsters Hayashi, Kisanuki, Kubo, and Sanada for the foreseeable future. I have issues with Hara's over-use of Kisanuki so far, so I applaud him risking people's second-guessing of his moves for the betterment of the kid's future.

That is, if Hara was pulling Hayashi because of his high pitch count. If it is, in fact, a knee-jerk reaction to a hit or a walk, then I agree with you.

I have to largely agree with Suraj, even though I've had it in for Hara since he was a player. Kisanuki has indeed been overused (so has Arakaki with Daiei, but I'll leave that for later) despite the fact he has had some shoulder problems during his college days.

As for Hayashi being pulled, I can understand Hara's logic. He gave up a long homer to light hitting Katsuyuki Dobashi for the veteran's first homer of the season on Hayashi's outpitch, his forkball. Hayashi also got away with some fat pitches early in the game, so Hara may have thought that Hayashi was tiring, a not altogether unreasonable assumption. In addition, if Hayashi had gone on to get shelled, it would have eroded the 19 year old's confidence. So I can't really fault Hara for what he did, just that the Giants' front office needs to do something about that bullpen, which has been horrible for years.

I also don't blame Hara for how the Giants have fared. The club has been hit with an amazing amount of injuries (the latest being Yoshinobu Takahashi with a bad shoulder, and both Etoh's and Kiyohara's careers are probably over) and Kuwata has reverted to his pre-2002 looking washed up form. There will be big changes this off season to be sure, and it will be interesting to see if the team bounces back. Hara has done a pretty good job overall, which I really hate to say, but it's true, imho.

- Disclaimer: I'm a Hanshin Fan and can't stand the Giants or Hara, and am quite pleased to see the Giants' horrible season.

Suraj a Hanshin fan? I always thought you were Giants fan.

Oh well.

Disclaimer: Big Hanshin fan here, too.

How I love my team. But I have to assume this is an "off" season for the Tigers, one in which many of their players are simultaneously hitting peak form, pitchers especially enjoying "career years." Look at the next four teams (including the Giants) bunched up in the Central League standings. Take away the Tigers and you have one heck of a pennant race -- I really think next year will be a much more balanced one, and then should be the time to properly evaluate Hara.

The loss of Matsui, in particular, has been huge. Let's hope the NPB doesn't become a farm system (in reality or in the minds of Americans) for MLB.

Another disclaimer from a Tiger's fan.

Sara B, you are a paper fan. No real Tiger's fan would make such a comment about the Tiger's chances for next season. Imaoka and Akahoshi are in their 20's and they will have a strong team next year, too.

I hope they don't fire Hara as he is proving to be a rather inept manager. The jury is still out, he is still new.

A lot has been said about the loss of Hideki Matsui. Yes, he's gone, it was a great loss to the team. Matsui performed admirably during his 10 seasons with the Kyojin.

Matsui came to the Giants when he was 18, he was probably the most awesome and sought after high school player in the history of Japanese baseball. Anybody remember the summer high school tournament where he was deliberately walked 5 times in a row? Opposing pitchers were terrified of him.

There was a lottery and the Giants won the rights to Matsui. And the lottery was, well, it was never proven, but there is good evidence that it was rigged. There was much commentary about it at the time. The Giants never should have gotten Matsui in the first place.

I have never thought of Hideki Matsui as a Giant, not like I think of Hara, Kuwata, Uehara, and other such players.

Hanshin fan here too.

Amazing how many Tigers "fans" are popping up. I still have my ticket stubs of the games I went to when the Tigers had reserved seats in the 6th spot.

- I hope they don't fire Hara as he is proving to be a rather inept manager. The jury is still out, he is still new.

He is still new. Having said that, becoming the Central League champion his first season as manager sounds like a fluke or a product of Watanabe's special magic (Watanabe = Giants owner).

- A lot has been said about the loss of Hideki Matsui. Yes, he's gone, it was a great loss to the team. Matsui performed admirably during his 10 seasons with the Kyojin.

- There was a lottery and the Giants won the rights to Matsui. And the lottery was, well, it was never proven, but there is good evidence that it was rigged. There was much commentary about it at the time. The Giants never should have gotten Matsui in the first place.

What was the story behind the rigging? Please remind me, I heard it, too, but I don't remember much about it.

Note: Putting aside whether it was rigged or not, Giants have a tendency of getting all the "Star" draft players. E.g. Takahashi. If I remember correctly, he had the choice of which team he wanted to be drafted by. At the time it was said he wanted to be drafted either by Seibu or the Swallows (or was it BayStars not Swallows?). But he suddenly had a "change of heart" and said his father is a Giants fan and he wanted to be drafted by Giants. Later it came out that his father had debts to pay which the Giants paid off in exchange for Takahashi to say he wanted to get drafted by Giants.

- Matsui came to the Giants when he was 18, he was probably the most awesome and sought after high school player in the history of Japanese baseball. Anybody remember the summer high school tournament where he was deliberately walked 5 times in a row? Opposing pitchers were terrified of him.

You must study the history of Kookou Yakyuu in Japan more carefully. I agree that Matsui was a brilliant high school player, but he is not the best nor the most celebrated. Check out: this post about Seiichi Shima.

3 best pitchers:

1. Seiichi Shima
2. Suguru Egawa
3. Kazuo Fukushima and Daisuke Matsuzaka

3 best hitters:

1. Kazuhiro Kiyohara
2. Nobuyuki Kagawa
3. Hideki Matsui

OK Seiyu-san, I should have said the most sought after batter of the modern era and not "player." With "player" you have Daisuke Matsuzaka and a couple of other claimants.

Per your list, I would rank Matsui ahead of Kiyohara as a high school player because Kiyohara played for PL Gakuin (on the same team with Kuwata) that won the summer Koshen tournament in the mid 1980's. Matsui played on a much weaker team but inspired his teammates by terrorizing opposing pitchers by clubbing towering home runs all over Koshien during the tournament.

In the semi finals of the summer tournament Matsui was deliberately walked 5 times in a row and the opposing team won a close game.

As for the 1930's, how about Eiji Sawamura? I don't know what he was like in high school but he was the Japanese pitcher of the 30's. The Sawamura Award is named after him, and he, too, sadly died young in WWII.

Dear WeirdGaijin,

I don't have any data on the lottery to get Matsui almost 11 years ago, I just know it stunk to high heaven. It was foul. The Giants cheated to get him. Does anyone else have any specifics?

I heard that about Takahashi, too. Another reason to hate the Giants.

Here is yet another reason to hate the Giants, they play the game like a computer. I remember a game about four years ago when they were beating the Tigers 13-2 in the eighth inning. Their leadoff hitter got a single. The next batter bunted him over to give him a better chance to score.

They will deliberately walk two batters in a row to get to the bottom of the order and throw the #7 or #8 hitter only off speed and breaking balls. I have seen them do this on several occasions.

Look at all the stolen bases Hanshin has this year. I bet the closest Giant to Akahoshi has less than one third his number of steals.

- I should have said the most sought after batter of the modern era and not "player." With "player" you have Daisuke Matsuzaka and a couple of other claimants.

I think you're missing the point that a lot of times star Koshien pitchers are also good batters. This week's Shu-Be has a long feature about some of the great matchups in Koshien's history, including Yokohama (starter: Matsuzaka) vs. Higashi Fukuoka (starter: Shuichi Murata, current BayStar). Yokohama won that game, 3-0. Matsuzaka pitched a shutout and contributed with the bat, hitting a double in the sixth to drive in the first run. Murata, on the other hand, pitched well, striking out nine, but lost the game. He went 0 for 4 as well. As you know, Matsuzaka is now a star pitcher, and Murata is an infielder with the BayStars.

My point is that I don't think we need to be making such a distinction between "pitchers" and "players." My other point is that Seiyu knows what he's talking about.

I'm not missing any point PlNara. What point? So Matsuzaka got a double in a game and drove in a run, so what? I'll bet he was kyu-ban in the batting order.

There is a valid distinction between pitcher and batter. Even in the high school tournament the pitcher (with perhaps some very rare exceptions) bats 9th in the order. Do you want to know why they bat last in the order? Because pitchers train to pitch, and batters train to bat. Yep, it's that simple.

I acknowledged that both the batter and the pitcher are "players" in the last post. My distinction was between "batter" and "pitcher."

Sometimes a pitcher is a converted hitter or a first-rate all around athlete who can naturally bat well. Moore of the Tigers is a good example. More often than not pitchers are abysmal batters. Sandy Koufax was a notoriously poor hitter. I hope I'm not committing a fauz paux here by writing about an American player.

- My point is that I don't think we need to be making such a distinction between "pitchers" and "players." My other point is that Seiyu knows what he's talking about.

And I don't? Why is that? Where did that come from - left field?

I don't know about nowadays, but at least until the 1990, the best player was a pitcher and batted 4th in the line-up. Nara-san is right about this.

Iarryo-san, you are fine. All your points are well taken. Except you must distinguish between pro and high school ball in Japan. Ace pitcher/batting 4th is (or was until recently) a norm in Koshien history.

You're right, you know. Pitching is obviously different to playing the other positions of the field. But in Koshien, it's not at all unusual for a pitcher to bat somewhere other than ninth. You can look at the box scores for this year's tournament (in Japanese). There are plenty of examples of pitchers batting in the heart of the order. Also, at Koshien, it's not unusual for position players to relieve the starting pitcher. Teams don't get enough roster spots to carry relief pitchers.

I couldn't find the box scores for Matsuzaka's Koshien appearances, so I don't know where he batted. But I still think that at Koshien, pitchers and other position players are less distinguishable than they are at the pro level.

Your point about Matsui is well taken, but you must remember that Kiyohara was a monster at high school, even if he played for PL Gakuen. Just look at his stats at koshien (Koshien Encyclopedia of Famous Pitchers and Players [in Japanese]).

Remember, my ranking is only for high school. Kiyohara, unfortunately, became a big spoiled brat after he turned professional. If he had Matsui's personality and work ethics, the sky was the limit. Also you must not forget "Dokaben" Kagawa. In his case he was just too fat to become an effective professional player.

Eiji Sawamura was a brilliant pitcher, but here again, his greatest fame came from his perfomance against MLB players, not during his performance against other high schoolers. The best pitcher in the 1930s and in the history of high school ball in Japan is Seiichi Shima of Kaisho High School. I wonder what would have happened if he played professionally or against MLB players. The guy died so young.

Disclaimer from a BayStars fan!

No! No! Don't get rid of Hara. He's doing a great job. Hope he drives the YG into the cellar.

I am not a Hara-kantoku fan, but as he is new, I would give him a couple more seasons to show his stuff. IMHO, the Giants' win in Hara's first season as kantoku was due to the Giants still having Nagashima written all over them. It would not have mattered who was at the helm that year, the YG still would have gone all the way. However, I will not take too much of anything away from Hara as Nagashima's shoes are just too big to fill. Talk about pressure.

--- [High school baseball] ---

seiyu-san, I remember "Dokaben" Kagawa. However, if I recall correctly, weren't many of his homers at Koshien due to the "Lucky Zone" that they had back then?

More than individual performances, I liked the "rivalry" that Ikeda kouko and Y-ko had in the early 80's, or was it late 70's? They ended up duking it out for the Haru (Spring) and Natsu (Summer) Tourneys. Mizuno (pitcher for Ikeda) ended up being drafted by the Giants and Miura (pitcher for Y-ko) went to college.

- No! No! Don't get rid of Hara. He's doing a great job. Hope he drives the YG into the cellar.

Verrry Funny coming from a BayStars fan. But highly unlikely the Giants will be in the cellar for any period of time. Giants have this "agreement" that they be kept in the top half of the standings, in return for a percentage of the sponsor money Giants get from broadcasting their games on Network TV. Could you imagine how desperate the Central League will get if no one watched the Giants on Yomiuri TV/NTV

- I am not a Hara-kantoku fan, but as he is new, I would give him a couple more seasons to show his stuff. IMHO, the Giants' win in Hara's first season as kantoku was due to the Giants still having Nagashima written all over them. It would not have mattered who was at the helm that year, the YG still would have gone all the way. However, I will not take too much of anything away from Hara as Nagashima's shoes are just too big to fill. Talk about pressure.

Hara has Nagashima all over him. He was the head coach for Nagashima before Nagashima retired. Hara was trained as a baseball player by Nagashima. I bet Hara has picked up the use of sound effects Nagashima often uses while teaching baseball to the younger kids.

--- Off topic ---

Number 0 of Giants, Nakagawa I think. Doesn't he look like one of the "Nande daro, Nande daro" guys? The one who does the dancing. Does someone else think so, or is it only me?

With all due respect, I have never been a "paper fan" of anything in my life, let alone the Hanshin Tigers. This is a fine place to discuss opinions about Japanese baseball, and I'm glad generally that one can do so without having judgements made about one's sincerity or the quality of one's fandom.

Having said that, I have followed enough losing Hanshin seasons to be properly skeptical of success. Last year I frequently disagreed with Hoshino-san's use of his pitchers, and I will be interested mainly to see how the Tiger arms hold out through the rest of this season and playoffs.

As for next season and beyond, allow me and my tora friends some well-earned dourness. Any Red Sox fan would understand. It doesn't mean we don't gambaru with the best of them, or love our team any less.

As you were saying that Giants would be riggers? How did they do that? If it is the case, NPB is totally unfair, so Yogogi should not complain about the Majors.

Hara has made many errors this season, such as using Maeda in meaningless innings when his team was beaten by a score of 3-13 (with Hanshin), using Sanada a lot as a closer. He makes his team weaker and weaker, and has eventually lost their confidence.

I would love to see him there again next season to let other teams have a bigger chance and make more fun!

Farm systems don't pay players six or even seven figures (in U.S. $) as NPB now does. At worst, NPB might become a limited feeder system for MLB.

The front page of today's Nikkan Sports (September 19, 2003) has Watanabe-owner stating that if the Giants lose three games in a row to Hanshin starting today that Hara will be fired.

All of this comes after dropping to fifth place during a nine game losing streak, the Giants' longest losing streak since September of 1975 (28 years). Furthermore, with a 6 and 16 (1 tie) record (so far) against Hanshin, this is the first time in 18 years that the Giants have a losing record against their Kansai rivals. With one more loss, will will tie the record for most losses to the Tigers set in 1979 (9 wins and 17 losses).

NTV is showing a live press conference right now, led by Watanabe-san, with Hara-kontoku and former pitching coach Horiuchi at the table. Looks like Hara either was fired or he resigned, and (I think) is being replaced by Horiuchi as manager. Nihongo speakers, please jump in here and get the word out as to what's happening.

Today's Nikkan Sports has three pages, including the front page, dedicated to Hara-kantoku's press conference.

In short, the series of events was:

• 9/18
  Watanabe-owner says it's a good thing Hara's Giants didn't lose 10 in a row, but if they drop their next three to the Tigers, that Hara's continuing next season is up in the air.


• 9/19
  Hara-kantoku turns in a request for resignation. The team is also shutout by the Tigers, making it look like a quit before he gets fired situation.


• 9/20
  The Giants win big, with Hara-kantoku looking quite smug in the dugout. (I found the look on his face quite annoying.) Hara says that he doesn't plan on resigning of his own free will.


• 9/21
  Hara met with Doi-club president and Watanabe's puppet representative Mitsuyama (?). Hara thanks the fans for their support and states again that he doesn't plan on quitting. The Giants defeated Hanshin a second night in a row.


• 9/22
  Watanabe-owner sits out of the Sumo Yokozuna chair meeting (of some sort), something that he doesn't do for any trivial matter. Hara said he didn't want to talk to the owner, and didn't. Every indication showed that Watanabe wanted to work this out and keep Hara-kantoku, but that brought Hara's status for next season back to "unknown." Hara repeated that he didn't plan on quitting.


• 9/23
  Mitsuyama (?), Watanabe's main puppet, went to Koshien to talk with Hara-kantoku. Hara had no plans on talking with him, but said that running into him in the hotel would be inevitable. Nagashima-kantoku said that he would come in to talk with Hara to help out.


• 9/24
  Watanabe-owner, Doi-president, and Mitsuyama (?)-representative get together and hold a late meeting. Watanabe critisizes the media for printing a bunch of lies.


• 9/25
  Doi-president talks with Hara-kantoku at Koshien for 47 minutes. Later that evening, Watanabe-owner announces that Horiuchi will be the next manager for the Giants.


• 9/26
  A press conference is held where Hara-kantoku takes full responsiblity for the Giants' poor performance this year and resigns. Horiuchi is named the new manager starting next season.

Many Giants' fans think that it's Watanabe who needs to be replaced. But that's a different story.