How Long Should a Team Hang On?

Well, how long does it take a player to get through the minor league system in North America? Five years? That seems like a reasonable amount of time for a high school graduate to get to the top team. But then, neither Fujita nor Matoba joined straight out of high school, I don't think.

It seems that Fujita has shown promise the past couple of years, with an ERA under 4.00. Certainly not the top of the class, but better than many when he's healthy (a problem, as you pointed out).

As for Matoba, an outfielder, who's his competition? Kanemoto, Akahoshi, and Hiyama. Is there any chance for him to win a regular spot on the top team? He was a regular on the farm team last year, ranking 14th in batting for the Western League with a .286 batting average, 5 home runs, and 33 RBIs in 79 games. (9 home runs by Sekimoto was the most for the team.) I wouldn't consider him a total waste of time quite yet. Should anything happen to one of the regular outfielders, Matoba is in line behind Hamanaka and Kida. (Tora fans, feel free to point out anyone I've missed.)

One problem is that each franchise has to maintain two complete teams, the top team and farm team. The status quo makes breaking into the top team rather difficult. With all the talent the Giants are able to recruit, and the number of veterans they get from other teams, think how hard it is to get a chance at the top team there. I read about a BayStar pitcher who won his first game last week, this being his 10th year in Pro Yakyu. There are many similar stories, so 10 years of drifting back and forth isn't unusual.

Having career minor leagers isn't really a bad thing. It means that the talent pool isn't dried up. Fujita's a bit over-prices to stay on the farm (or the DL) for long. But is Matoba incapable of being a reasonable replacement for an injured Hiyama? (I don't expect a replacement player to be equivelent, but will he be good enough?)

If someone at Matoba's level isn't good enough to be a replacement player, then perhaps it is time to drop 70 ball players from NPB. Contraction of the league(s) will see the low end of each team (not just the merging teams) be dropped, raising the bar on what it takes to be a Professional ball player. That is the only valid reason I can think of for contraction. Personally, I don't think we're at that level yet.

Do you think that Matoba is not good enough to play for the top team should a regular be out of commission? Or is the problem that he's not the "star" that was expected of him? Same with Fujita?

- Do you think that Matoba is not good enough to play for the top team should a regular be out of commission? Or is the problem that he's not the "star" that was expected of him?

Well, Hanshin (I'm not sure about other teams, but I'd say this applies to others, too) have a regular cycle of farm hands who come up to ichi-gun for a while to act as pinch runners, pinch hitters, catch-ball partners for outfielders while the pitcher's warming up, etc., before going back to the farm. The cast includes people like Sakurai, Kida, Shuta, Sakurai, Okihara, Nakamura, et al. But Matoba hasn't even made that list for at least 2.5 seasons - even with Hamanaka was injured for most of the past two seasons. And I guess that's why I singled him out. Someone like Kida makes me think "if only he got a few starts on the top team he might be successful," but Matoba doesn't.

As for stars, well, the kids like 'em, but right now I'd settle for a bunch of people with no personalities if they could bat to their potential.

Anyway, getting back to the title topic, is five years too early a cut-of point for someone who hasn't even earned the chance to warm the ichi-gun bench? Naturally, those that show potential should be afforded more.

- Hirao, Takanami, Kitagawa, Hoshino, Hirashata, Sogabe, Tsuboi, Shiotani, ...

Torakichi-san, as a Tigers fan, I am assuming you realize that all the mentioned players are former Tigers. What you may not know, however, is that half of these guys get significant playing time on their current Pacific League teams. Other than Tsuboi, who played mostly as a starter for the Tigers, Hirao (Lions), Kitagawa (Buffs), Hoshino (Buffs), Hirashita (Marines), and Shiotani (Bluewaves) never really started many games for the Tigers. They were just going back and forth between the farm team and the top team, usually designated to pinch hitting / running duties.

The players mentioned above have spent anywhere from 2-7 years with the Tigers, probably not even starting 50 games a season with the top team, and thus were either released or traded to a Pacific League team.

I doubt that the Tigers' management is going to change. Look for the likes of Shuta, Kida, Okihara, Nakamura, Matoba, etc. to be released in a few years and head over to the PL as has been the trend for so many of these players.

Hirashita certainly has already gone to the Pacific League. More to the point, look at the money the Tigers are wasting on Irabu. With this in mind I don't think that Fujita or Motaba are such extravagances.

Who woulda thunk it just a couple of years ago? Hanshin actually has some depth offensively. I think that it is unlikely you will see Kida or Sakurai in anything other than a Hanshin uni in the coming years. Moreover, with Yagi about to be put out to pasture and Kataoka, Kanemoto, and Hiyama are all pretty long in the tooth, there will be spots opening up for them, at least on the bench.

Unfortunately, they still don't have an answer for Yano, who I give one more decent season and then see you later. Catcher really needs to be addressed.

At least those guys like Okihara and Shuta are making it to the bench and (theoretically, at least) putting some pressure on the upper echelons. My point was that Matoba doesn't even manage to do that.

You make a good point about Yano, though Gary. As opposed to 2003 when Yano would often be relieved by Noguchi in the last couple of innings, Yano is out there from go to whoa this season, and Noguchi languishes on the bench. Perhaps this is a reflection of the Tigers' often precarious position at that stage of many games this season. I suspect that Hoshino-kantoku also wanted to have a similar system going in 2002, but with Yano out injured for much of the season in those pre-Noguchi days, he had to rely on Asai and Yoshimoto.

Manabu Hiramoto comes to mind, in this connection, for Yakult.

I'd like put the same question to you all again, but this time regarding managers.

I noticed that Okada-kantoku has come in for some pretty hefty criticism in other threads on this forum. Perhaps that is fair enough given the Tigers' increasingly lacklustre performance this season. However, I recall a number of things that make me wonder whether the calls for him to go have been overly harsh. For instance:

• The Giants failed to win last year despite having an expensive team, but a lot of people were dismayed when Hara-kantoku was dumped.


• Under Nomura-kantoku, Hanshin was rock bottom three seasons in a row. Certainly, by the end of that term some people thought it was time for him to go, but no-one was calling for his head before he'd even finished his first season.


• It is suggested in this thread that players need time to develop. Even allowing for different standards that apply to players and managers, should the boss be dumped after his first season at the helm because of poor form, or should he, too, be given time to grow?

So, I ask again: how long should a team hang on to a manager that's not getting his team to win?

Finally! Kanichi Matoba was called up to Hanshin's first team yesterday (Sept. 1) in place of Hiroshi Yagi. Matoba didn't manage a hit in his two at-bats against Chunichi last night.

Okada-kantoku is quoted in today's SanSpo as saying that Matoba was supposed to be in ichi-gun from the beginning of the 2004 season, but he was injured in the spring. Okada insisted that it was not because of any lack of form that had kept Matoba out of the top team this season.

I guess that debunks my "ordinariness" theory.

I'm surprised Kida hasn't been given a chance at first this year. I thought he played quite well in the pre-season and was impressed with him the other day in a Western League game against the Hawks that was on Gaora TV. Matoba was very disappointing against the Dragons, poor pitch selection, he was swinging at everything!

Speaking of disappointing, how frustrating was it to watch the Tigers implode again! In fact, it was baffling why Okada left Fukuhara in the game when he was clearly struggling before Ochoa's 3-run blast.

I still believe this is where Hoshino had it over Okada, as an ex-pitcher, he knew when to make a change. You think Okada would get the picture by now but he is a joke, a embarassing imitation of what a manager should be. Cut this fool loose!