Relocation vs. Contraction
Discussion in the Open Talk forum
Comments
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: torakichi | Posted: Aug 27, 2004 10:25 AM
| HT Fan
]
Right. The Tohoku and Hokuriku regions don't have teams either, but both have sizeable populations.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Guest: yakyuujin | Posted: Aug 28, 2004 12:52 AM
]
A friend of mine told me recently that the Hokkaido Fighters have the best attendance in the Pacific League. They draw more than the Hawks, who have been leading in attendance the past few years. Proves how well relocation works. Can anyone verify the numbers on this?
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Guest: Tigers Baka | Posted: Aug 28, 2004 12:53 AM
]
Yeah, it would be nice to see the game become more "national" and see some regional teams. As you mentioned Torakichi, Tohoku, namely Sendai, would be a great location for a team with a few games shared around the region. I haven't been there, but from what I've seen on TV and heard, the stadium at Sendai is a dump. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lotte relocated for a season up there and drew dismal crowds?! I guess the paying public wants a modern comfortable stadium to watch a game in. A shame really because we've seen small market teams in the U.S. pull great crowds with new fan-friendly stadiums.
It would be great to see some investment in regional areas.
It would be great to see some investment in regional areas.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Aug 28, 2004 9:24 AM
]
For sure there are markets in Japan that could field a baseball team. This is definitly better than contracting a team.
- [...] why hasn't the possibilities of relocation entered into the owners discussions?
Probably because they haven't thought or want to move the team to another market. Or yet again Kintestu would still own the team if it moved, so they would still be in this same financial problem.
- [...] why hasn't the possibilities of relocation entered into the owners discussions?
Probably because they haven't thought or want to move the team to another market. Or yet again Kintestu would still own the team if it moved, so they would still be in this same financial problem.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: bouton-kun | Posted: Aug 30, 2004 6:25 AM
]
Read this interview with the new Giants' owner: [Link - Daily Yomiuri]
It gives you an insight into his thinking and how he is perceiving this matter. For him it seems to be about reviving the Pacific League.
One quote:
It gives you an insight into his thinking and how he is perceiving this matter. For him it seems to be about reviving the Pacific League.
One quote:
"One thing is clear, however. The idea of increasing the number of Pacific League clubs to six after the Kintetsu-Orix merger would not necessarily work. This is because all Pacific League clubs have all been affected by poor business performances.
"It is highly questionable whether the establishment of a new club will help improve the financial positions of the Pacific League clubs. Should the creation of a new club result in increasing Pacific League club losses, it would be totally meaningless. The matter must be dealt with from a viewpoint of helping the pro baseball world in its entirety."
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Guest: Christopher Amano-Langtree | Posted: Aug 30, 2004 10:35 AM
]
Nabetsune is now talking of two five team leagues if the two mergers go ahead. It would be interesting to see who wanted to move to the Pacific League from the Central.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: westbaystars | Posted: Aug 30, 2004 11:41 AM
| YBS Fan
]
- It would be interesting to see who wanted to move to the Pacific League from the Central.
Jim Allen, of the Daily Yomiuri, hinted a few weeks ago that it would be the Giants. If the other Central League teams didn't want to merge, then let them feel what it's like to be the league without Giants' games.
Actually, it kind of makes sense. With all the number four batters unable to play due to overlap of positions, having the designated hitter will help the Giants deploy more of their big bats.
Jim Allen, of the Daily Yomiuri, hinted a few weeks ago that it would be the Giants. If the other Central League teams didn't want to merge, then let them feel what it's like to be the league without Giants' games.
Actually, it kind of makes sense. With all the number four batters unable to play due to overlap of positions, having the designated hitter will help the Giants deploy more of their big bats.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Guest: Christopher Amano-Langtree | Posted: Aug 30, 2004 1:14 PM
]
- Jim Allen, of the Daily Yomiuri, hinted a few weeks ago that it would be the Giants.
I always thought that was Nabetsune sulking. Given that the biggest money spinner for the Giants are the Tiger matches it wouldn't necessarily benefit them. But I can see it being seriously suggested. However, I can also see the other Central League owners blocking it for sure.
I always thought that was Nabetsune sulking. Given that the biggest money spinner for the Giants are the Tiger matches it wouldn't necessarily benefit them. But I can see it being seriously suggested. However, I can also see the other Central League owners blocking it for sure.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: torakichi | Posted: Aug 31, 2004 12:06 PM
| HT Fan
]
- Given that the biggest money spinner for the Giants are the Tiger matches...
Are you sure about that? Certainly the opposite is true: Giants games are guaranteed capacity crowds for the Tigers and probably every other Ce-League team. But the Giants club is a money-making entity in itself; I would wager that if non-Giants fans were banned from Tokyo Dome and only Giants fans were allowed to attend (fanciful stuff, of course), they would still pack the Dome to the gills.
As far as crowds are concerned, surely the Giants don't care what league they're in?
Are you sure about that? Certainly the opposite is true: Giants games are guaranteed capacity crowds for the Tigers and probably every other Ce-League team. But the Giants club is a money-making entity in itself; I would wager that if non-Giants fans were banned from Tokyo Dome and only Giants fans were allowed to attend (fanciful stuff, of course), they would still pack the Dome to the gills.
As far as crowds are concerned, surely the Giants don't care what league they're in?
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Guest: Christopher Amano-Langtree | Posted: Sep 1, 2004 10:42 AM
]
Yes, having seen the massive queues at Tokyo Dome when the tickets for the Giants/Tigers games go on sale. Away from their base, Giants' travelling support is falling off and it is fairly easy to get day tickets for other teams at Tokyo Dome, but for the matches with the Tigers, it's impossible. The Giants/Tigers rivalry has a lot of other issues as well (Kanto vs. Kansai, Tokyo vs. Osaka, etc.). There are also advertising and merchandising issues if the Giants/Tigers matches go. I cannot see the teams in the Pacific League generating that kind of income flow.
Even though the Giants remain the richest team, part of the drive for single league and realignment is the falling off in interest in the Giants.
Even though the Giants remain the richest team, part of the drive for single league and realignment is the falling off in interest in the Giants.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: westbaystars | Posted: Aug 30, 2004 9:18 AM
| YBS Fan
]
Shukan Baseball, a weekly baseball magazine, interviewed 100 OB ("Old Boys" - retired players) about the merger talks. They asked two questions:
- How many leagues should there be?
- How many ball clubs should there be?
Quite a number of former players were for an increase in the number of teams. Here's the breakdown of answers:
How many leagues should there be?
1 league: 8
2 leagues: 83
3 leagues: 1
4 leagues: 1
No answer: 7
How many teams should there be?
8: 1
8-10: 2
10: 3
12: 57
12 or more: 2
16: 4
20: 1
Increase: 4
The more the better: 1
No decrease: 5
Decrease inevitable: 1
Can be supported: 1
No answer: 18
As you can see, the people closest to management who have actually played the game are pretty much against a decrease in the number of teams. What I found surprising was the number in favor of an increase.
I didn't have time, but I'm wondering about a break down of Giants' OB, Pacific League OB, and the remaining Central League OB.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Guest: yakyuujin | Posted: Aug 30, 2004 11:29 PM
]
If the Giants are able to move to the Pacific League, that would be the true test to see the power the Giants hold. All Central League teams would get hurt with such a move. Would the Giants be able to go through with such a thing despite the opposition? It will be interesting to see.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, the Fighters have a very good attendance (can someone help me find numbers on this? I cannot seem to find attendance totals for 2004 NPB). Change (i.e. relocation) can be a very good thing. It brings new life in the ball clubs. Japan is a very big country of 127 million people, and it should be able to support 12 teams easily. It is only half the size of America, and baseball is more popular in Japan than in the States, especially because Japan doesn't have as much competition in the pro sports department.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, the Fighters have a very good attendance (can someone help me find numbers on this? I cannot seem to find attendance totals for 2004 NPB). Change (i.e. relocation) can be a very good thing. It brings new life in the ball clubs. Japan is a very big country of 127 million people, and it should be able to support 12 teams easily. It is only half the size of America, and baseball is more popular in Japan than in the States, especially because Japan doesn't have as much competition in the pro sports department.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: westbaystars | Posted: Aug 31, 2004 12:04 AM
| YBS Fan
]
- can someone help me find numbers on this? I cannot seem to find attendance totals for 2004 NPB
Ah, this was the "one more thing" I wanted to comment on, but it slipped my mind.
Average attendance is one of the things I trace through the year. Please see the leaders page. I'm about a week behind in entering scores, but averages shouldn't fluctuate too much right now.
As for the Giants switching leagues, that will probably take a 3/4th's vote of the owners, to which five will not allow it. So Watanabe will have to rework the rules behind the sceenes for a while before he can do that.
Ah, this was the "one more thing" I wanted to comment on, but it slipped my mind.
Average attendance is one of the things I trace through the year. Please see the leaders page. I'm about a week behind in entering scores, but averages shouldn't fluctuate too much right now.
As for the Giants switching leagues, that will probably take a 3/4th's vote of the owners, to which five will not allow it. So Watanabe will have to rework the rules behind the sceenes for a while before he can do that.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Kiyoshi | Posted: Aug 31, 2004 2:24 AM
| HAN Fan
]
According to your figures from the leaders page, every team has a chance to draw over a million fans, including the Buffaloes and Carp. The Giants, Tigers, and Hawks are on pace to reach 3 million in attendance this year.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: sanshintigers | Posted: Sep 3, 2004 6:01 PM
]
I agree entirely with tigersbaka! Relocate the teams! One in Shikoku and one or two more could be moved. For example, as mentioned, Okayama games draw a fair share of fans (though the city leaves something to be desired), and north of Tokyo are some big spots as well. Another team in Kyushu? I'm all for it! Or even Hokaido, how about Hakodate? Wonderful city!
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: weirdgaijin | Posted: Sep 4, 2004 1:38 PM
]
Fighters just relocated to Hokkaido this season. It's too early to say that the relocation was a success based on the number of sell-outs in the first season. Let's see if the trend continues for at least three seasons. At least then we know whether relocation is a success regardless of the standings.
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: westbaystars | Posted: Sep 4, 2004 2:43 PM
| YBS Fan
]
This is a very good point. The years that each new stadium opened, including Osaka Dome with the Buffaloes, saw a rise in attendance. It was new and in style to go.
The Buffaloes showed that they can draw when they won the Pacific League championship a couple of years ago. Having Rhodes challenge the home run record that same year probably boosted attendance in the second half more than the first place finish.
Nonetheless, I agree. A good indicator for prolonged success is how the team draws after its newness (location, stadium, name change, etc.) has worn off and it's not a winning dynasty. (Daiei has had teams in the race every year since 1999. That may have a good deal to do with their popularity on top of their remoteness.)
The Buffaloes showed that they can draw when they won the Pacific League championship a couple of years ago. Having Rhodes challenge the home run record that same year probably boosted attendance in the second half more than the first place finish.
Nonetheless, I agree. A good indicator for prolonged success is how the team draws after its newness (location, stadium, name change, etc.) has worn off and it's not a winning dynasty. (Daiei has had teams in the race every year since 1999. That may have a good deal to do with their popularity on top of their remoteness.)
Re: Relocation vs. Contraction
[ Author: Guest: Tigers Baka | Posted: Sep 5, 2004 9:15 PM
]
I hear what you're saying, but do you honestly think that in 3 years the Fighters in Sappporo will be pulling smaller crowds than they did in their final years at Tokyo Dome? Of course not! Those games were pulling strictly friends and family.
What I'm saying is, the Tokyo and Kansai areas are already saturated. These markets cannot support the current number of teams playing there. Teams have nothing to lose in at least trying relocation as a final option rather than merging.
What I'm saying is, the Tokyo and Kansai areas are already saturated. These markets cannot support the current number of teams playing there. Teams have nothing to lose in at least trying relocation as a final option rather than merging.
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I mentioned this on another thread (under a different topic), but why hasn't the possibilities of relocation entered into the owners discussions?
Shikoku is still without a team and Matsuyama boasts a great ballpark. Share a few games around Takamatsu, Kochi, and Tokushima and give the team a truly Shikoku identity.
Could Okayama host a team? I've been to several sold out Tiger game there, and Muscat Stadium shows up some other pro stadiums that I've been to, notably the Carp and BayStars' stadiums. The Kurashiki/Okayama City area has a population in excess of 1 million, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
It's disappointing that this hasn't been discussed as I believe it would be preferable to a club totally disappearing!