A Joint MLB and NPB

I think the first thing to conquer is what MLB officers are thinking about, and what is in the NPB officers' minds. I just promoted Oh to be an MLB Hall of Famer, but I got discouraging reply mail. And many Japanese people try to look down themself on professional sports.

Anyway, if this day is coming, I will be the first exciting fan to fly to Japan to watch the game!

No.

There is a ton of problems with this plan.

1. MLBPA will absolutlely not go for this. The players association will not vote to expand almost 6,000 miles.


2. Trades would not work. It takes a rare individual to move overseas and adjust to a completely different environment (it's getting better on both sides but that's a lot to ask).


3. The American league will get all the best American players because they will run away from the travel.


4. Travel costs and expenses will increase incredibly for both leagues


5. The National League would have to overpay for talent if your alignment goes through. Also, teams that are trying to keep money down would be eliminated. I'm not even talking about Kansas City, I'm talking about teams like Arizona who is hemmmoraging as well as San Francisco, Oakland, and other mid-market teams with smaller checkbooks. I also could see teams like Lotte, Seibu, Hiroshima, and maybe the Orix Buffaloes also going under.


6. It wouldn't be a "true" World Series to teams in Taiwan or Korea. Not to mention the good people of the Dominican Republic and Mexico, who have pro leagues.


7. How are you going to have a league with two Giants and two Tigers? That's before the merger finally kills off San Francisco.


8. Will Yomiuri "Japan's team" lose with a team made up of mostly Japanese players or win with a team of predominently gaikokujin? The talent gap is definetely closing, but I don't think it would work if the Japanese teams were getting knocked around.

I'm going to stop now.

- How are you going to have a league with two Giants and two Tigers?

Ha! That would make for some insane TV commentary. Also, there'd be people traded from the Tigers to the Tigers, Giants fans hating Giants fans, and disputes over who holds "the Tigers'" HR record, Giants vs. Giants games being repeatedly described as a "Goliath and Goliath" struggle, etc.

Actually, there is precedent. In 1954, Yomiuri had a team called the Dragons who finished in second place to ... the Chunichi Dragons.

In 1954, the Central League was comprised of:

• Yomiuri Giants
• Osaka Tigers
• Chunichi Dragons (just changed from the Nagoya Dragons)
• Taiyo-Shochiku Robins
• Hiroshima Carp
• Kokutetsu Swallows

The Pacific League was:

• Nishitetsu Lions
• Hankyu Braves
• Nankai Hawks
• Toei Flyers
• Takahashi Unions
• Daiei Stars (a movie studio - not related to the supermarket chain)
• Mainichi Orions
• Kintetsu Pearls

The top two teams in 1954 were the Chunichi Dragons (86(4)40 .683) followed by the Yomiuri Giants (82(1)47 .636).

Where did you get two Dragons from? Yomiuri's team has only been called the "Tokyo Kyojin" from 1936 to 1946 and the "Yomiuri Giants" from 1947 to present according to Baseball Magazine Sha's yearly Record Books.

Chunichi is a competing newspaper to the Yomiuri Shinbun. Perhaps that's what you were thinking of?

I got my information off of the Internet, of course! Next I bet you're gonna tell me the Earth is round and Elvis is dead.

Yeah, right!

Wikipedia has a listing in their baseball section for the Yomiuri Dragons as a defunct baseball team as well.

I'm probably wrong about 1954, but I'm not so sure about there not being a team in the 1950s called the Yomiuri Dragons.

OK, I've gotten it corrected on the offending Wikipedia page.

The person who put it on Wikipedia informed me that he found the information at the Central Baseball League History page of the Major League Sports Almanac. It appears to be a typo in the Champion/Runner-Up table that grew into a franchise in the Franchise History table.

There's a lot of mis-information out there. And I'm sure that I'm guilty of some of it myself (beyond getting Kuma-owner's name wrong all these years). If you catch any (here or elsewhere), please let me know.

Awwwww. That was the first source. I can give you opinions all day, but facts and predictions, I stink at that!

I also see the jet lag problem is very big, but before anything like this can be seriously considered, NPB would have to first become a world class league. There's been great improvement in the level over the years and they are getting closer, but the one bit of evidence that NPB still considers itself second class is the foreigner quota. If NPB wants to take the next step, they must do away with the quota, then they will have the possibility of becoming a truly first class baseball league. (But, with the paternalism that exists in Japan baseball, don't hold your breath.)

- If NPB wants to take the next step, they must do away with the quota...

The quota should stay, precisely because NPB is a weaker league. Many leagues in many sports around the world have quotas, including the pro soccer league in the United States, if I'm not mistaken.

Local talent needs to be nurtured, and I can't see that happening if the rosters were filled up with foreign ball players. And the fans would be less likely to turn out to see a team consisting of mostly foreign players. Call it xenophobia if you like, but that's what would happen.

Amend or expand the quota by all means, but don't do away with it completely.

In another thread (I forget which), I once proposed doing away with the quota of foreign players, but imposing a cap on how much could be spent on such players. This would encourage developing talent, and the amount could be adjusted as necessary. In this way, NPB could wean itself as much as it wanted from the quota and at a suitable pace.

Jim Albright

A World World Series between a NPB champion and MLB champion? Maybe. A NPB/MLB combined league? I don't think so.

I heard Japan will have six Independent League teams next year (2005), all of them are under the U.S. Independent League system. So it's kind of interesting to see how they play each other. However, I have no idea if they play 1) a pennant race, and/or 2) a world series in Independent League. So if somebody has some knowledge about the league, can you explain what that is going to be like?

I think jet lag and traveling cost (especially for an independent league) can be the major problem (if they play a pennant race).

Thanks in advance.

Actually, there is precedent. In 1954, Yomiuri had a team called the Dragons who finished in second place to ... the Chunichi Dragons.

Aren't there two teams called the Rough Riders (or is one the Roughriders?) in Canadian football even now?

I've been looking for more information on this since you posted it. I'd read something about the possiblity of an Indpendent League affiliated league starting in Japan in 2006 a few days back, but there were no further details.

I just got off the phone with a friend who knew the situation better. He says that a new North American Independent League affiliated league will be made up of half Japanese, half foreign players and will consist of a total of eight teams, four in the Kanto region, four in Kansai. They will be part of the current six league affiliation in North America, and participate in a final deciding tournament (series) at the end of each season. This series will most likely be held in North America.

But this is not the only semi-pro league starting up. There have been announcements for two more.

The first one will be a four team league in Kyushu with corporte sponsorship starting in 2005. This league is apparently being led by former Seibu and Daiei third baseman Ishige. The league itself is currently looking for ball players between 17 and 24 years old. This sounds like the formations of a type of rookie league to me.

Also, there are plans to start a Tohoku League in the six northern prefectures of Honshu (the main Japanese island). This league is looking to be a combination of former professional ball players and passed over collage or high school players.

Note: When someone begins "I heard this from a friend," it's best to double check the information. In other words, please don't take my word for it! If anyone can track down more information on this from a reliable source, please let us know.

- The first one will be a four team league in Kyushu with corporte sponsorship starting in 2005.

It is Shikoku, not Kyushu. Link - in Japanese]

Thanks for the info, westbaystar-san. Actually, I was starting to doubt about info I posted, since nobody replied or mentioned anything about the Independent League that should be starting next year.

However, I found that info from an article on "goo.ne.jp" about a week before my previous post. So I'm not clear about the info, but it was about the Independent League and that they will start in Japan (I'm not sure whether it was 6 teams or 8). And, like you said, Ishige will manage one the team in "Shikoku."

I have almost no knowledge about the Independent League, so I really don't know how they play. But I browsed around some Independent League sites and learned that their league is divided by region (I think it was like 6 to 8 regional leagues (for example, Atlantic League, Northern League, etc.). So I think the Japanese Independent League will be another one in its regions (Japan in this case) and they will play against teams inside the league for their pennant race. (No worry about jet lag problems or anything there.)

I don't know if they will play the world series. However, I kind of think that their focus is not about their baseball but rather for their young talent pool for MLB or NPB or to have fans in their local communities. In addition, I think it's a little too difficult to play the world series for their budget. But I'm not sure about this one. It's just my idea.

The biggest reason the two baseball systems will not merge is "economic." MLB has always denied that any leagues or talent within are on the same level as thiers.

First it was the National League's rejection of any league in the late 1800s and early 1900s, particularly the old American Association and even the early American League. Eventually, the American League was accepted as an equal.

Later, MLB would not even contemplate that their was any decent talent in the Negro Leagues or the Cuban League.

If MLB can't totally control it they will not accept a "World Series" or merger. Earlier this year, NPB and the KBO rejected MLB's "World Cup" proposal due to MLB's "lack of consideration" to NPB or KBO. MLB would have received most of the profits and had almost total control.

Nippon Pro Baseball (Central/Pacific), Korean Baseball Organization, and CPBL (Taiwan) can work with MLB, but should remain independent of MLB.

I would agree with many of the others about economic and logistics reasons for not combining, but I do not see why there could not be a true World Series. They have figured out how to do it for Little League, why not professional leagues?

While there may be a difference in talent levels presently that MLB might be quick to point out, who knows what the future will bring (e.g. the impact of European hockey players in the NHL)? The All World-World Series would not have to be played every year, much like the bi-annual NPB vs. MLB All Star Series which is about to commence this week. We could stumble on something as exciting as the World Cup in soccer (or football, if you prefer).

The economic factor is huge. Looking at player salaries alone, Petagine the highest NPB player gets 72,000-man (720,000,000 yen) which is US$ 6,794,896.08 (www.xe.com November 5, 2005). The top 12 highest paid Yankee players earn more than that (see www.espn.com).

Also, I believe a possible failure for a baseball World Cup would be the depth of world wide talent. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but I don't think it would catch on like the football World Cup. The cricket World Cup involves around twelve teams with only about 5 of them being competitive with the rest only making up the numbers which is a real bore.

"matteo" wrote:

Also, I believe a possible failure for a baseball World Cup would be the depth of world wide talent. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but I don't think it would catch on like the football World Cup. The cricket World Cup involves around twelve teams with only about 5 of them being competitive with the rest only making up the numbers which is a real bore.

I doubt the depth would be a huge issue. First of all, depth isn't that critical a setup like this. Three starting pitchers plus good starters at the eight positions (nine if a DH is used) plus one or two pinch hitting types would fill the key roles. You don't have to build a team for the long haul. Front line talent carries the day.]

The April 28, 2003 Sports Illustrated (page 66) has four excellent teams (US, Japan, Dominican, and Puerto Rico), and if Mexico or Venezuela have a stud pitcher somewhere, they could cause havoc. Venezuela would have Alex Cabrera and Bobby Abreu to give them some punch, and Canada with Larry Walker should be able to field a decent team. Taiwan and Korea would have no trouble fielding teams that if yoked to a stud pitcher would be real threats to win when that guy was on the mound.

I know not all these countries would have that stud pitcher, but when you've only got to come up with one or two to be competitive, the chances are good that some of them would pull it off. You'd have at least six teams that could beat anybody in a given game, and at least 3-4 who would have legitimate chances to win the thing.

It would be a great place to showcase talents from NPB, Korea, Taiwan, Venezuela, and the Mexican Leagues, to name a few, and I can easily see most countries getting juiced for the game against the USA. Korea versus Japan would be a rivalry, and I would think bragging rights among the Hispanic countries would be a big deal. The ingredients are there for a good tournament.

Jim Albright

One possible team you haven't mentioned is Australia, which of course won the silver medal at the Athens Olympics (beating Japan twice in the process).

But when would the tournament be held? If it's in the traditional spring training period, then the players won't be ready to play at their best. And if it's at the end of the season, then the players would be jaded, especially the pitchers. And it can't be in the middle of the regular season, because the MLB owners won't want to release their best players. They don't do it for the Olympics; why would they do it for a World Cup? Money? Perhaps. But I think you'll still have teams wanting to at least protect their ace pitchers from overuse, especially those teams fighting for playoff spots for the "real" prize - the World Series.

A World Cup is a nice idea, but that's all it will remain - an idea.

It was reported at various places that the MLB, Japan, and South Korea have come up with a preliminary agreement for a March 2006 Super World Cup.

I'll believe it when I see it. It certainly won't attract the same interest as the soccer World Cup, and I predict that if they eventually end up holding one tournament, there won't be a second.

But then again, I predicted John Kerry would win the election too.

[Please don't degenerate into a political discussion.]

mijow wrote:

- [...] But then again, I predicted John Kerry would win the
> election too.

Heck, I got 48 of the 50 states plus DC right, but didn't get the two big ones: Florida and Ohio. Which means I was all wrong.

In a certain way, it's possible you are going to mimic my experience in picking the election. You have a lot right, and the idiots who run MLB and NPB are a real obstacle. The ultimate question is do the MLBPA, the MLB owners, and the NPB owners want it bad enough to make it happen (or can they be sufficiently enticed, especially in the case of the players)? That certainly is in doubt now.

However, I suspect that the growing globalization of the game will make such a thing happen on some regular basis some day. I won't guess when that day might come, and I hardly would be surprised if the idea has a few tryouts and deaths before it finds its way, but I think the idea has such power and the elements for a great representation of baseball to the world are there that ultimately it is in baseball's best interest to make it happen.

By the way, how do the top soccer leagues in Europe deal with the issue of how the Soccer World Cup could disrupt their seasons?

Jim Albright

- By the way, how do the top soccer leagues in Europe deal with the issue of how the Soccer World Cup could disrupt their seasons?

Well that's an interesting question. I don't know in detail - maybe someone else can enlighten us - however I believe that there are sometimes disagreements between FIFA and the national soccer leagues/teams regarding scheduling.

But one of the main differences between the two sports, of course, is the role of the pitcher in baseball. There's no equivalent position in soccer. Pitchers' arms are fragile, and overuse is a big worry. If I were a team owner, I'd be very worried if my ace participated in a "meaningless" World Cup, even if it's part of the spring training period, as this period should be a gradual and controlled buildup to the regular season. You don't want your pitchers to reach their peak two or three weeks before the start of the regular season, and then have them burned out by October.

And fan interest in a World Cup will wane if the players aren't playing at their best. The soccer World Cup is successful because it really means something to the players, and they play with intensity. This will never be the case in baseball.

I agree about the pitching issue - you'd probably either need a rule like they have in Babe Ruth leagues and below on how much a pitcher could be used, and/or schedule teams to play no more than every second or third day. The latter solution complicates matters by potentially stretching out the time the tournament takes to complete.

There's no question there are hurdles to be overcome, and the key parties (MLBPA, NPB, and MLB owners) have to perceive enough of a stake in its success to make it work. It will take almost diplomatic skill to pull it off without multiple attempts and failures, but I still think it will happen some day. I won't venture a guess on when that day will come, though.

Jim Albright

In reference to a joint MLB/NPB World Series, if done right it could work out very well. While there is a talent gap between the two leagues, they are undeniably the two best professional baseball leagues in the world.

Japanese pitchers in the major leagues tend to dazzle MLB hitters early in their careers, before players can adjust to their stuff (Hideo Nomo is the best example, but there are others). This factor could help close the talent gap in a seven game series where at most a pitcher would face the oposition three times. Find a way for Japanese players to consitently see 100 mph fastballs (one of the biggest factors in the "talent gap") and the NPB champ could have a chance to beat a major league team.

Concede home field advantage to the NPB. Initialy there is more money to be made in Japan than the U.S. from this idea (at least until a NPB team pulls off an upset), and that helps close the talent gap also. Give a generous series bonus to the winner, this ensures that the MLBPA will jump onboard.

Finally, NPB has to accept the fact that they will most likey lose the series, but there is a chance they will win. From what I understand Japanese teams play "small ball," while a lot of MLB teams, esp. in the AL, play for the home run (I'm a die hard Chicago Cubs fan, and this is certainly true of my team). Simply playing the game the right way would help the NPB team.

Now just convince the MLB to risk its self declared supremecy, and you have a true Sorld Series.

I am writing a college essay on Japanese players in the U.S. and the Japanese game. While researching, I ran into your site.

As a lifelong fan of baseball, I must say, your idea is rediculous and nearly impossible. It will never happen. If Japanese players want to play against the best in the world, they are just gonna have to become good enough to get a contract in the major leagues. And your Mississippi river idea - is simply crazy. Sorry buddy.

Part of being a baseball fan is discussing what might have been; what could be; or what should be - no matter how ridiculous or far-fetched. Some of the things mentioned here are impossible.

Between the time of Commissioner Landis and Jackie Robinson in 1947, it was thought ridiculous that the color-line would be broken. Who would have thought that Ichiro would be ROY and MVP?

There are hundreds of players from Japan and Korea that could have played in MLB pre-Nomo (Murakami excepted). So dream on baseball fans.

"Ryan" - you have betrayed your youth. Never is an impossibly long time. You may be right for the forseeable future, but what if we gain the ability to travel from the East Coast of the US to Japan in the same time in the air as it now takes to go from coast to coast in the US? That would make a huge impact on the feasability of the idea. Changes of that magnitude have happened, if not in your lifetime, at least in the past 60 years. I'm sure before WWII, somebody said there would "never" be major league baseball on the West Coast, because it took too long to travel there by train. By 1960, there were teams in California.

The point is, things change, often in unforseen ways. So, unless you are truly omniscient, you'll find you look foolish less often if you temper your comments a bit.

Jim Albright

- [...] but what if we gain the ability to travel from the East Coast of the US to Japan in the same time in the air as it now takes to go from coast to coast in the US? That would make a huge impact on the feasability of the idea. Changes of that magnitude have happened, if not in your lifetime, at least in the past 60 years.

Well, we did have supersonic flight for a time, didn't we? But cost, environmental issues, lack of demand (and some bad luck) put paid to that idea. As far as I can see, the trend is towards bigger payloads rather than significantly faster flight times. So I'm afraid somehow gaining the ability to travel from New York to Japan in five or six hours may not be possible for a very, very, long time. (In fact, long enough to justify Ryan's pessimism, in my view.)

We're getting away from baseball now, but who knows how the ability of commercial entities to get into space will develop, for instance? It may be a very long time, and it might not. If Ryan had said this century, I might disagree, but I can't say there's no reason for such a thought. But "never" is a word I just don't buy unless you think baseball will die out that quickly.

Jim Albright

I keep hearing from people in the States saying that the talent of players in Japan is nowhere near the MLB level. I have to strongly disagree. The talent is here in Japan, but the system in Japan keeps that talent from reaching its full potential. Practicing all day long and playing a game at night is absolutely terrible. The Japanese seem to think "practice makes perfect." Anyone who has played any sport at a high level understands that this is not true. "Perfect practice make perfect."

How can a ballplayer improve his skills when he is too tired to do anything? Sports medicine is almost non-existant in this country. Proper training habits, rest, and diet would go along way also.

About the Independent Leagues in America. Do not even think about the leagues in Japan and America playing. The players are barely paid in the States because not many teams have any money at all. Teams find families in the community that are willing to have a player stay in their house for free. Most teams play in front of crowds of less than a hundred people. There are a few successful independent teams in the States, but not many.