Kaz Matsui's Summer Vacation

where did u hear this? and florida has disney world not disney land.

i am willing to bet if kazuo goes to a differant team and the fans dont treat him like garbage he will breakout to his true form.

When he first started, Art Howe gave him a day off in spring training to rest up. Instead, he took his family to Disney World. Nothing reported this time around.

Face it, your boy Matsui is not very good, no matter what ball park he plays in or MLB team he playes for. Face the facts and don't pass the blame.

"Face it, your boy Matsui is not very good, no matter what ball park he plays in or MLB team he playes for. Face the facts and don't pass the blame."

Let's use some rational thinking here. The Mets organiztion shouldn't have overhyped Kaz Matsui to be someone he wasn't either. Then when the Mets hype him out to be someone he isn't they shouldn't leave him out to feel the burn.

Are you somekind of major league scout? How the heck do you know how Kaz will play outside of doom and gloom Shea, where Mets fans find a single scapegoat for the Mets failures every year case in point(Kaz Matsui).

I find it funny how Kaz can play at all with the level of crap he deals with from some people at Shea and their biased news media in New York which has ran more crap on him than anyone I can remember.

Once, Kaz gets away from the doom and gloom of Shea and when he isn't expected to be Ichiro Suzuki is when he will shine.

"Let's use some rational thinking here. The Mets organiztion shouldn't have overhyped Kaz Matsui to be someone he wasn't either. Then when the Mets hype him out to be someone he isn't they shouldn't leave him out to feel the burn."

Excuse me, but Kaz was a home run hitting, slick fielding, high batting average star in Japan. One of your best. Those were the facts, not the hype. No one expected him to equal those stats, but he was expected to play competant baseball, which he has not done. As for leaving him out, that may be one explanation for his prolonged disappearances, though he continues to collect a nice salary.

"Are you somekind of major league scout? How the heck do you know how Kaz will play outside of doom and gloom Shea, where Mets fans find a single scapegoat for the Mets failures every year case in point(Kaz Matsui)."

No, I'm not a scout, but neither are you. Yet, you are convinced that there would be some miracle if Matsui played elsewhere. You know what, he stinks when he's on the road too. How do you expain that? Lastly, in reading some of your other posts, you are some sort of Orioles fan who repeatedly has condemned the Mets, their fans and the media. Who did you say was biased?

Good day.

"Excuse me, but Kaz was a home run hitting, slick fielding, high batting average star in Japan. One of your best."

I'm not going to start a flame war here, but the Mets hyped Kaz out to be the next Ichiro Suzuki whether you are blind to that fact or not. Plus, I'm American.

"though he continues to collect a nice salary."

Go complain to someone who cares, me and you aren't going to change this fact, Mr.Wilpon and Duquette signed Kaz to this contract or did you forget this?

"Yet, you are convinced that there would be some miracle if Matsui played elsewhere."

Who are you to say how the heck Kaz would play outside of Shea? I'm not a scout, so that's why I don't try to act like one, like the NY news media. Also, you know what Kaz has also been injured this year too, have you been blind to that or have the NY media been feeding you the anti-Kaz Matsui media(I'm sorry, the NY media has struck a chord with me, with their coverage).

"Lastly, in reading some of your other posts, you are some sort of Orioles fan who repeatedly has condemned the Mets, their fans and the media."

It seems you have selective reading, because I have only condemned Mets owner Wilpon, former GM Jim Duquette, selective fans, and the news media. Also, I'm impressed that you can attack my team, is that the level it has reached at Shea these days?

Do you realize Kaz is hitting .304 at Shea and .233 on the road? Doom and gloom Shea must be agreeing with him. Yes, you certainly are no scout, but your posts are so authoratative.

He is entitled to his salary, he just isn't earning it, based on his performance and inactivity.Contracts are a 2 was deal. Someone pays in anticipation of success, the other takes it in anticipation of delivering it. The injury isn't his fault. Just pointing out the obvious. Yet, you seek to condemn the owners, but place no responsibility at all, on Kaz Matsui.

No one expected he would be another Ichiro. The general expectation was that he'd hit .280, hit 15 homers, steal 25 bases and be a slick fielder. He hasn't come close.

I couldn't care less if you were from Mars. "One of your own" is an NPB player. You are obviously an NPB fan. If you didn't have a great attachemnet to Kaz, you wouldn't be defending his obviously poor play by blaming everyone in sight.

I don't see where I attacked your team at all, just pointed out that you seem to be an Orioles fan.

You don't seem to be very open minded, rational or logical, so I bid you good day.

You are no different from some Mets fans that you condemn.

"Do you realize Kaz is hitting .304 at Shea and .233 on the road?"

Huh? Kaz is batting .257 at Shea. Big difference, do some research before you spit out numbers.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=430565&statType=1

"The general expectation was that he'd hit .280, hit 15 homers, steal 25 bases and be a slick fielder."

He was on pace to do that last year until he was injured.

Lets also quote former Mets and now Chiba Lotte Marines manager Bobby Valentine:

"Jose Reyes was the child prodigy of the New York Mets and he's a shortstop. Once they said Matsui was going to take his place, he was in a no-win situation.

"I was asked (in 2003)by then-GM Jim Duquette and then-manager Art Howe what I thought about Kazuo Matsui. I told them about the concerns about the exceptations, but they thought I was overeacting."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getsp.pl5?sp20050713a1.htm

"You are obviously an NPB fan."

Your point, what are you trying to prove here, I sense some kind of ethnocentrism here. I've a fan of any baseball league that is of respectable quality, I don't shut myself out to just the MLB. You're the one here that doesn't seem rational, logical, or even open minded for any matter.

Right you are, my bad.I gave his OBP. He's hitting .257 at Shea and .205 on the road. Thanks for proving my point and showing he's worse than I thought.

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?c_id=nym&playerID=430565&statType=1

He was not on target for those expectations. In fact, after March and April, where he hit .266 with 1 homer and 6 rbis, he hit .217 and .194 in May and June. he had a RISP of .214.

I am not going to waste my time debating you. Where that "ethnocentric" business came from, I have no idea. All I said was that you are an obviously an NPB fan. I actually appreciate the baseball in Japan. So you get defensive? Seems like you are just flailing away now in your pronouncements because you have no substantive, factual basis for your opinion.

You have a problem, bud. or, you are probably just a kid. Good luck with the O's.

"He was not on target for those expectations. In fact, after March and April, where he hit .266 with 1 homer and 6 rbis, he hit .217 and .194 in May and June. he had a RISP of .214."

Lets see, he also fought threw injuries in May and June, before finally being placed on the DL on June 21th. Last year, he was better than he got credit for offense wise, .272, 7HR, 44RBI, 14SB, and 322B's.

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/transactions.jsp?c_id=nym&year=2005&month=6
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=nym&playerID=430565

Please, also when the Mets are batting .256 as a team. No one is going to score anyone, the Mets are 29th out of 30th in the Majors in average.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/sortable_team_stats.jsp?c_id=mlb§ion1=1&statSet1=1&groupByTeam=true&statType=1&sortByStat=AVG&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2005&baseballScope=mlb&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true&Submit=Submit&sitSplit=&checkBoxTotal=0

Ethnocentrism is a sad truth we have to face. IMO, John has a right to bring up the fact that he senses it. This is japanesebaseball dot com, where there is a degree of awareness on this issue. There are plenty of other sites to go to bash on kaz and nitpick about how bad he is. It just makes me wonder why someone would come here to make a point about how bad kaz really is to them.

Kaz Matsui is a respected individual in Japan and a lot of people have questions on how the Mets oragnization and fan base treated him regardless of his playing ability. Most of us like to root for our team, our guys, through thick and thin. To some of us, thats what baseball is all about and should be about.

Its sad that Kaz had to become an All Star in order to recieve fan approval. It upsets me that he wasn't allowed to make all the mistakes he made in order to gain fan support. It bothers me that he was made the scapegoat since his first year when he lead the team in hits and doubles in limited action.

Ethnocentrism is prevelant in the Media and it trickles on down to the fans. Kaz Matsui got the worst of it from the Mets media & fanbase. Period. I just don't care to listen to someone go out of their way to prove how bad kaz matsui "really" is, at this point in the game..... and on this site.

Can we have some etiquette and respect for the game and its players? Bobby V knows those words don't exist in the vocabulary of the Mets franchise.

Gentlemen, gentlemen...

It seems despite claims made that this was not going to turn into a flame war, it actually has. I wanted to weigh in here, hopefully as a voice of reason, because I think you both make valid points in this argument. I believe the truth about Kaz really lies somewhere in between your viewpoints...

I wanted to compare Kaz's situation with that of the other NY Matsui, since Hideki's situation could have ended up the same as Kaz. Remember that Hideki was highly touted when he first arrived as a power hitter, another "Bronx bomber" for the Yanks' lineup... and there was definitely some initial disappointment about his power numbers during his first season. But there
were two things, I think, which kept him from going down the same road as Kaz in the high-pressure NY market:

1. He did have the support of the Yankees media machine.

While YES and the other Yankees media outlets did acknowledge his lower-than-expected power numbers, they were very quick to point out how much better he was in many other aspects of the game than they had predicted. He could hit for contact or power, he played a decent outfield and he seemed to know what the team needed and when. YES talked a lot about
how "complete" a player he was, and so he never really faced the negative machine that Kaz is currently facing...

Of course, Kaz didn't help the Mets media machine much... it's hard to build a positive case for a player when you're hitting "as expected" and you're playing the field MUCH worse than expected. I think the best the Mets media could do was apologize and talk about how hard it is to adjust to a new country. And how long can you keep that up?

2. Hideki is on a personal journey.

People have different reasons for playing the game, and doesn't it seem like Hideki's reasons stem from an inner desire to "test his limits" and see how good he can become? The force of his drive is strong and undeniable... how else could he have left his position with THE Yomiuri Giants and remain as respected/loved a figure as he is in Japan? That desire is so strong, in fact, that Hideki can weather any sort of negative media storm, because he's his own worst critic... he's usually the first to talk about how bad he's slumping anyway.

Kaz, on the other hand, seems to have more of the "rockstar/celebrity" personality in him... I didn't really see him in Japan very much, being a new convert to NPB, so perhaps I'm not reading him correctly. But it seems to me like he's someone who loves the adoration of the crowd and feeds off of it... so it was definitely wrong of Mets management to overhype him, but it didn't seem to me like he really fought against that overhyping. If anything he really bought into it... it certainly looked like he loved being the toast of the town when he first arrived. It probably would be impossible to have hyped Hideki that much simply because he wouldn't have "played along"... he doesn't have as much of a media "presence" as Kaz does. So if Kaz had come to town and ended up playing better than expected, I think Kaz would have become the bigger "star" in the Big Apple than Hideki... but that sword cuts both ways, and you end up the bigger "chump" if you don't play as well as expected.

But I agree with the idea that Kaz's situation probably would not be as bad as it is if he weren't a Met... I think Mets fans tend to see themselves as a "cursed" franchise, much like the Cubs or the pre-2004 Red Sox. Fans of "cursed" teams tend to focus on one bad thing and make that the reason for all of the teams' problems. Look at 2003...

Boston didn't make the World Series that year simply because Grady Little left Pedro in a little too long that one time.

The Cubs didn't make the World Series because of that one fan who interfered with an outfielder catching one foul ball.

Riiiiiight...

So the Mets, being "cursed", would rather blame their bad showing only on the fact that Kaz Matsui hasn't played up to the high expectations set for him, which is wrong. In all of these cases it takes a LOT more than just one bad thing to make the situation as bad as it is... and there's plenty more wrong with the Mets than Kaz.

However, by the same token you can't just put your blinders on and make Kaz completely blameless, simply a victim of the "evil" NY media. Mets fans may be harder to please, but if Kaz started playing consitently well they'd be more than happy to forgive and forget. I just don't get the sense that he has the right character for that to happen... since he feeds off the emotion of the fans, those "boos" and negative comments only serve to make him play worse, which leads to more "boos" and more negativity. It's a downward spiral with no end...

So I would agree that if Kaz has any chance of becoming a successful MLB player, he *has* to get out of New York... I don't see any chance of him rebounding there. There's no guarantee that will help, though. It's only an increase in his chances, but I think it would represent a good thing in him personality-wise if he did loosen up on his no-trade clause... it'll be much tougher to be a "star" playing for the Royals than it would have been for him with the Mets, which would show me that he really just wants to play his best baseball possible.

To touch on the ethnocentricity angle presented here, it's completely unfair for the Mets fans to say things like, "Let's not get any more Japanese players," based on Kaz's underperformance. Kaz is Kaz, Hideki is Hideki, Ichiro is Ichiro and so on. These guys are just as much individuals as anyone else on the planet, and they'll all succeed or fail individually... if the Mets actually take that attitide, it'll be their own loss because I think there are plenty of Ichiros, Godzillas, Nomos and Iguchis yet to come over.

But on the other side of ethnocentricity, I'm not willing to defend Kaz's bad performance just because he's Japanese... "Hey, he was really good with the Lions! Keep giving him chance after chance after chance!" Hey, maybe he's just not built to succeed in the MLB... and it's no knock on NPB to think that. There's no guarantee of success when players move either way across the Pacific. The best NPB player might come to MLB and stink up the field, and the best MLB player might just go over to NPB and do the same... and neither event happening tells us anything about the relative quality of either league.

OK, did I overanalyze this enough? Hopefully this babbling on my part might blanket the flames here... ^_^;;;

- Stevie

Your point MHtrStevie is a pretty well thoughtout well one on Kaz, and I agree on all of your points.

I agree, the Yankees YES network and Yankees brass has supported Hideki Matsui to the fullest while the Mets have seemed to left Kaz out to feel the burn from the NY media and fans after they overhyped him after his signing. Bobby Valentine warned the Mets about this type of scenario before the Mets signed Kaz, though he was ingored outright. It looks like Bobby V. was right 100% this time.

I think it would be all the people involved best interest to trade Kaz to another team where we can see if he can shine away from Shea for a while. Maybe, Kaz needs to get traded to a small to mid-market team like the SF Giants, KC Royals, or the Seattle Mariners.

In my opinion, Kaz showed signs of success last year, but he was plagued with injuries last year. This year, has been hard on him, he's been fighting injuries all year along with learning a new position from scratch.

Next, about the ethnocentrism signaling from some Mets fans(note not all of them), some NPB players are going to fail(Irabu, Mac Suzuki, and Takahito Nomura), though overall most have(Ichiro, Godzilla, Nomo, Iguchi) been a success. Even players such as So Taguchi have been a important part of the St.Louis Cardinals. According to Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa, Taguchi has been one of the Cardinals most important players. Hasegawa has overall been good throughout his major league career, Ohka, Ohtuska, and, Takutsu were all great relievers.


About Kaz Matsui, his downfalls aren't a blind issue, and I said this numerous times that Kaz needs to work on his fielding. Though, the level of criticism Kaz recieves from the NY news media makes me feel disgusted, some of it is just downright pathetic. No Mets player, in my memory has dealt with the level of negative criticism and level of stuff hammered against in the press in New York City as Kaz Matsui, not even Roger Cedeno, Mo Vaughn, and Roberto Alomar.

"Ohka, Ohtuska, and, Takutsu were all great relievers."

My mistake, I meant to put Ohka as a starter.

Let's not forget Shinjo in all this. He didn't pan out in the MLB, but he sure did a great defensive job along with decent hitting. He was Mr. Clutch for the Mets in 2001. His best decision was to return to Japan though. Some guys just need more time to adjust.

Shinjo was a fan favorite with the Hanshin Tigers before coming to the majors. Shinjo was bigger than life in Japan, and still is in Japan.

When, Shinjo went to the major leagues it was hard not to like his constant always upbeat attitude, even when he was at AAA, he was the same upbeat Shinjo. He was a fan favorite and he instantly made an strong impression upon me my first time seeing him play that still stands with me till today, when the Orioles played the Mets in interleague play in 2001.

I think, Shinjo went to the majors to become a better player. He came back to Japan in 2004 with the Nippon Ham Fighters and have a career year, batting .298 with 24 HR and 79 RBI. Shinjo matured as a player taking the knowledge he learned from his experience in the majors, and is defintely a far better player because of it.

I'm not sure of others, but I don't count Shinjo's stint in the majors as a failure. He took the situations he learned from major league baseball and in my opinion matured more as a player.

I have to tell you, it's like the twilight zone on this board.

I come over here, have a look around, see some guy is making stuff up about Kaz going to Disney World while on the DL and correct it. OK, and in a blunt NY way I state the obvious: the Kaz isn't so hot.

So I get mugged. Foster Brooks goes off on some anti-Met tirade, then spews out something about ethnocentricism. Heck, he needs a exorcism with what is bothering him.

I agree with you on the Yanks doing a better job covering Godzilla's back. The NY sports press is in the pocket of the Yanks. The Mets get the bums rush...second guessed and sometimes dismissed.Your analysis on the two Matsuis is a good one. H Matsui IS a warrior, but he plays well, perseveres and has a quiet dignity to him. He plays classic and classy baseball. Like Ichiro. NY fans appreciate that.

Kaz IS about the attention and fan adoration. In doing that, he has turned the spotlight on him. Indeed, his game IS all about him. You're right that his rejection by the fans is hurting his game. He was hyped as much as Godzilla and he went looking for the adoration.But hype is based on over-exaggerated claims and brazen promotion. Both Matsuis were bonafide stars in Japan. Ichiro-Godzilla-Kaz, the big three. Expectations are going to be high, not because the Mets Hyped Kaz, but because of what the guy did in Japan. He was a stud, for crissakes! The difference is that Godzilla started to play well after a few months and his class started to shine through. Kaz never really got going, could never prove that he was a warrior, and got down on himself. He created the impression that he was a loser. New Yorkers hate high profile guys who look like phonies. New Yorkers hate to he taken. Kaz, rightly or wrongly, has gotten loads of grief because he has not played well compared to his past and the fans feel taken. It is an incorrect conclusion that the Mets fans blame any season disappointments on Kaz. He's not the scapegoat. He hasn't been around enough this season. He's just seen as a loser. So maybe a change of scenery would help, along with a pair of glasses and a back hand.

One last thing on the Wilpons. Some of you have bashed Mets ownership for treating him poorly. What exactly have they done? They were delicate when it was clear he was not a MLB shortstop, yet painfully kept him there last year when it was clear Reyes was superior. Then they eased him over to second. They have kept him out of the spotlight after this injury and are taking there time with him. The team always speaks of him with dignity.So what have the Mets owners done? Kaz's difficulties are damaging the face of Fred Wilpon. All one has to do is read the anti-Met posts here to see that the Mets organization is suffering in Japan because of this situation. So, why would the Wilpons do anything to make matters worse?

In closing, I will remind those posters who are offended by the entire Kaz matter that Western players unceremoniously get the hook mid-season in Japan. You think anyone in baseball here is concerned about a gaijin's feelings or face? It's all very cut and dried. I also see a thread called American disasters is NPB and a lively discussion of all the American failures in Japan baseball. So I ask all you open and high minded posters, if I came and created a thread in a US or Japan board and called it Greatest Japanese baseball failures, would anyone be offended? Of course you would! Foster Brooks would be crying ethnocentricm and someone else would shake their head and post about etiquete and decorum. Mets fans and New Yorkers have their own blunt way of communicating that some of you may find distasteful, but the wholesale indictment of a team, fans, press and the prejudice I see on many of these threads here is at least equally loathsome.

So fellas, you have a choice. I'm going to lay off Kaz. I hope he comes back and redeems himself.Lay off the Mets and it's fans. You can all end this now, or continue to post your prejudice. I will respond. You'll end up with either a censored thread or a big pissing contest. The point is, I will not tolerate attacks on Mets fans, its management or the team. So keep your neighborhood clean and high minded.

"Foster Brooks goes off on some anti-Met tirade, then spews out something about ethnocentricism. Heck, he needs a exorcism with what is bothering him."

Huh, you see like the one not using rational thinking here. I'm not going to fuel the fire by adding a response to the statement.

"Kaz never really got going, could never prove that he was a warrior, and got down on himself. He created the impression that he was a loser."

How are you so sure he created the impression he was a loser? He fought threw injuries last year and still had a decent year, was it the best year no, but is it as worst as you put it out to be no. Kaz finished off at .272 with 7HR, 44RBI, 14SB, and 322B's. I think he deserve some credit there.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/matsuka01.shtml

"It is an incorrect conclusion that the Mets fans blame any season disappointments on Kaz. He's not the scapegoat. He hasn't been around enough this season. He's just seen as a loser."

He's seen the same as Bobby Valentine, he the scapegoat for the Mets failures. There is a player every year that the single scapegoat for the Mets problems. I'm sorry I don't buy your arguement that he seen as a loser, it's just the NY media and selective fans who continue to push this on Kaz.

"One last thing on the Wilpons. Some of you have bashed Mets ownership for treating him poorly. What exactly have they done?"

The Mets signed him knowing they had a top prospect in Jose Reyes sitting there. Kaz was in a no-win situation if he lost. Like Bobby Valentine said:

"Jose Reyes was the child prodigy of the New York Mets and he's a shortstop. Once they said Matsui was going to take his place, he was in a no-win situation."

"I was asked (in 2003)by then-GM Jim Duquette and then-manager Art Howe what I thought about Kazuo Matsui. I told them about the concerns about the exceptations, but they thought I was overeacting."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getsp.pl5?sp20050713a1.htm

The Mets management should have listen to Valentine, but they pushed him aside and ingored him, typical response. It looks like he was 100% right.

My thinking is very rational, thank you. Your responses are not.

Kaz's numbers last season were OK, but far short of Godzilla's and far less than the stud numbers he put up in Japan. You also conveniently failed to mention that he fielding was atrocious. These weren't rookie bobbles. These were deficiencies in range and movement. He also could not backhand the ball. Again, the fans were expecting a golden glove shortstop in Kaz, based on his RECORD, not hype, in Japan. When he proved to be even less than adequate defensively, the fans felt cheated.

The rest of your argument resting on the great Bobby Valentine saying they shouldn't sign Kaz and they did anyway, so Kaz's failure is the Wilpon's fault is the lamest thing I've read from you yet! That's funny! Everyone says Kaz is great, Bob Whiting, players themselves, Tommy LaSorda..everyone except Valentine, so we should only listen tyo Bobby??!!Pushed Bobby aside: he wasn't even working for the Mets. You think Bobby is the alpha and omega of baseball knowledge? ROGLMAO! Kaz has no responsibility?

I see you were silent on the Greatest American Busts comment, so I guess you're over there now posting away, thinking it is not insulting. I would really be in a lather, but the repetitiveness of you posts indicates you are a kid and a not very bright one at that.

Keep it up Foster.You're posts are getting more and more inane and weak. You will dig yourself a hole all the way back to America.

I also see a thread called American disasters is NPB and a lively discussion of all the American failures in Japan baseball. So I ask all you open and high minded posters, if I came and created a thread in a US or Japan board and called it Greatest Japanese baseball failures, would anyone be offended? Of course you would!

Actually I wouldn't be offended at all. Irabu would receive my vote. I'd be keen to see what everybody else thinks.

"Actually I wouldn't be offended at all. Irabu would receive my vote. I'd be keen to see what everybody else thinks."

I would second that vote. It wouldn't be offending at all for me to deal with it.

Actually, I would feel offended if I posted such a thread. I think many of you would too. People are offended by comments like: Send Kaz back to Japan. I really prefer to judge baseball players on their abilities, not where they come from.

Here's another showing of Mets fans ingorance towards Kaz. This statement here is just downright racist garbage here by Mets fans. Kaz needs to drop his no-trade clause and get out of Shea as quick as possible.

There's racist names being heard on the Mets MLB Message boards, yes makes me wonder. Also, the poster seems to forget Mr.Wilpon signed Kaz to his contract.


http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-mets&msg=120513.1&ctx=0

The second biggest Japanese failure after Irabu is Masao Kida, who signed a 2-year, $3 million dollar contract with the Detroit Tigers in 1999 only to bail on the team when he got sent to the minors in the middle of the season (June) in 2000. He was erratic and not even close to being worthy of the money the Tigers heaped on him.

I have to say this about the Wilpons. When MLB teams were taking numbers and lining up for a chance to woo Kaz Matsui, the Wilpons put on a dog-and-pony show to lure Kaz to NY. Fred Wilpon's son lives in Japan and is married to a Japanese woman so they used that angle to kiss up to Matsui and his family. They told the U.S. media that they know Japan and its people and culture and all that. Now that everyone in New York is ripping Matsui a new %#!hole, the Wilpons have been very quiet. Mmm, if they publicly wooed the hell out of Matsui, why the heck won't they back him publicly when he's struggling? Makes you wonder...

I think they just want to wash their hands of the whole Kaz Matsui situation. I wish they would just trade him or release him and give him a chance to have a fresh start, just like the Mariners did with Bret Boone.

What should I make of all of Japan's brown shirts, revisionists and Nationalists who protest at Yakasuni or who are quoted in the papers?

I suppose I could use your example of racist fans and apply it to the hundreds of thousands of unrepentant and unrehabilitated citizens in Japan. Of course, then I can make the final leap of Brooksonian logic and say all or most of japanese citizens are unrehabilitated and unrepentant Nationalists.

Deal with Kaz's failure everyone. You all sound terribly bitter. Move on.

Kaz failed with the Mets. But branding the entire nation of Japan racist is going overboard. English media have a field day with Ishihara's quotes, Yasukuni, etc. But the English media like painting pictures like that to sell papers.

I'm not doing that and I know better.

I am using it as an example. Brooks picks up a post on a web site, probably from a 14 years old, that uses a derogatory reference to Japanese and then uses it as evidence claiming most Mets fans, the press and their management to be racist.

Of course the logic is flawed, ridiculous and outrageous as is claiming the view of a few to represent the view of the many.

"Brooks picks up a post on a web site, probably from a 14 years old, that uses a derogatory reference to Japanese and then uses it as evidence claiming most Mets fans, the press and their management to be racist."

I know all well that all Mets fans aren't this way, but there are well too many that are downright ingorant to Kaz. Did I use it to claim the press and management was racist, no. So, I don't see where you're going there. I said there are selective Mets fans who digust me.

I used to really respect the Mets organization, my first Orioles game I went to was against them at Baltimore. Though, my respect for the Mets has all but left because of this situation.

"Of course, then I can make the final leap of Brooksonian logic and say all or most of japanese citizens are unrehabilitated and unrepentant Nationalists."

Man, you're on a crusade here aren't you. Now your claims are just downright pathetic, I never called New York City citizens anything. I call a selective Mets fans a racist, who called Matsui a "Jap". If you have a problem with that I'm sorry. I been to NYC, so keep on coming with your crap, though that was to Manhantan not Queens. I have no problems with anyone from NYC, so I don't where you're coming up with this stuff.

"The rest of your argument resting on the great Bobby Valentine saying they shouldn't sign Kaz and they did anyway, so Kaz's failure is the Wilpon's fault is the lamest thing I've read from you yet! That's funny!"

What's funny is that the Mets signed Kaz when they had Jose Reyes a top prospect at shortstop. Then when Kaz Matsui got off to a less than great start he was left out to burn by the Mets by their news media and fans. At least the Yankees, have supported Hideki Matsui to the fullest throughout his tenture.

"I see you were silent on the Greatest American Busts comment, so I guess you're over there now posting away, thinking it is not insulting."

You see to have some kind of resentment buddy. I'm was born in the United States. I was one of the active posters there and in the Tuffy Rhodes discussion.

You bet I'm on a crusade Foster Brooks, becasue you don't know when to let it drop.

"Here's another showing of Mets fans ingorance towards Kaz. This statement here is just downright racist garbage here by Mets fans. Kaz needs to drop his no-trade clause and get out of Shea as quick as possible."

You want to whine about racist garbage, call the fans ignorant and then you say you have no problem with anyone from New York. man, you are just flapping in the wind now. Read you past posts.

I see you switched off bashing the Wilpons to knocking the press, so I'll take that as a concession. Now, what's this about the "Mets newsmedia"? You are an ignoramous. The Mets don't HAVE a new media. It's the same media that covers the Yankees. You know, the same on all over Jason Giambi, lousy Yankee pitching, Carlos Beltran's weak production as well as Kaz Matsui's sub-par play. Kaz doesn't even get mentioned much any more. The difference between Godzilla and Kaz is that Godzilla could play great and with dignity. Had he been unable to do so like Kaz, the excuse making, as was pointed out earlier, could only go so far. Willie Randolph and many of the Mets made positive comments to the press on Matsui. But the guy has to do it for himself. You act as if the Mets have something to gain from keeping Matsui unproductive.

Resentment? yes, toward your petulent attitude, inconstitent logic, senseless hostility, flimsy arguements and double standards. You ought to take a job at the Waffle House. You persist in your venemous indictment of New Yorkers, the Mets and their fans and the press, ignoring the facts and reason. You are blind to the fact that this would not be an issue if poor Kaz could perform at an acceptable level. Unlike Godzilla, he wilted under the pressure. On a stage that he sought, accepted and embraced. Sorry it didn't work out. It happens. Like some western players flop in Japan, get the unceremonious boot and are derisively written about on message boards and yes, in the Japanese press. Those guys you can talk honestly about. But honesty toward Kaz...that's a different story...

"You bet I'm on a crusade Foster Brooks, becasue you don't know when to let it drop."

Huh, I'm not the one that started this, I repsonded to your post earlier and you jumped all over me. All throughout this topic, I heard you cry of how I on my anti-NYC crusade, please can it.

You're the one who said:
"Face it, your boy Kaz Matsui is not good, no matter what park he plays in or what MLB team he plays for. Face the facts and don't pass the blame."


"You want to whine about racist garbage, call the fans ignorant and then you say you have no problem with anyone from New York. man, you are just flapping in the wind now. Read you past posts."

I already seen that you're arguements have become irrational here. I've seen you have selective reading.

"You are blind to the fact that this would not be an issue if poor Kaz could perform at an acceptable level."

Huh, did you not read this topic, I posted earlier:

Sorry, I meant to finish that post off with

Huh, did you not read this topic, I posted earlier:


"About Kaz Matsui, his downfalls aren't a blind issue, and I said this numerous times that Kaz needs to work on his fielding."

This was the beginning:

"Face it, your boy Matsui is not very good, no matter what ball park he plays in or MLB team he playes for. Face the facts and don't pass the blame."

Let's use some rational thinking here. The Mets organiztion shouldn't have overhyped Kaz Matsui to be someone he wasn't either. Then when the Mets hype him out to be someone he isn't they shouldn't leave him out to feel the burn.

Are you somekind of major league scout? How the heck do you know how Kaz will play outside of doom and gloom Shea, where Mets fans find a single scapegoat for the Mets failures every year case in point(Kaz Matsui).

I find it funny how Kaz can play at all with the level of crap he deals with from some people at Shea and their biased news media in New York which has ran more crap on him than anyone I can remember.

Once, Kaz gets away from the doom and gloom of Shea and when he isn't expected to be Ichiro Suzuki is when he will shine.

I said Kaz wasn't very good. An opinion backed by most baseball people now.

You said the Mets shouldn't have promoted him as someone he wasn't. OK, sensible, but we'ren't they just stating what he had done in Japan and what was said by most baseball expert outside the org (except Bobby V)

The you challenegd me, not my opinion, demanding if I was a scout, implying that my view was meaningless unless I was one. You also made a unflattering reference to Shea and an unsubstantiated scapegoat charge

Then you talked about crap, a biased NT news media and Kaz getting an unfair amount of crap. Getting kinda resentful there.

You concluded with anopther unflattering set of adjectives about Shea. You inferred that a comparison to Ichiro was wrong. Fair enough, but his record in Japan put him among the elite 3 and was described as faster than Ichiro.

Look, it is really unfortunate what's happened to Kaz. I would much rather see him in the 2 hole hittting .285 15/75 with 30 sbs and a Golden Glove. That's the expectation. His defense was poor and Willie Randolph wants a strong defender. Baseball is a tough game. You have to produce. The Mets gave Mientkiewicz 2-3 months before starting to think that he wasn't the answer at first. Management and the press are on Wright and Reyes for defensive lapses.In the end, it's up to the ballplayer to deliver. When they don't, their jobs can be lost and they can be the target of belittling, regardless of color or origin.

Then Kaz got hurt this year and the Mets are bringing him back slowly. Last year, he also had an undetected fracture. We'll see what happens. There's talk of trading for Soriano to play second. That would be a mistake. there is a fine rookie, Anderson Hernandez in AA that is opined as better than Reyes defensively and is hitting .360+, who was switched to second.

If Soriano isn't brought in and they leave Hernadez in AAA for more training, Matsui can win his job back. Cairo and Matsui are more or less comparable. Thge Mets need a sparkplug to make a run for the wild card. Kaz could be that spark and if he is, he will endear himself to the fans and will excel even more. But he is going to have to come back strong and fast, becasue he'll be on a short leash. I think Willie (Kaz will be a decent second baseman in a few years) and Omar prefer not to have him, honestly, but I think the Wilpons have so much invested in him that they will dictate that he get every opportunity. Willie has also been good about that too...look at how he sticks with Ishii.

So, let's see how it unfolds and save the colorful adjectives.

"I said Kaz wasn't very good. An opinion backed by most baseball people now."

Though the fact is we don't how Kaz will do outside of Shea. I think we should reserve our judgement until we see otherwise. Most baseball people, don't know either, people like Joe Morgan and Rob Neyer just like to open there mouth and insert their foot in it. Morgan and Neyer act like they're the smartest baseball people on the planet, Morgan acts the same way towards Japanese baseball, he's calls it AA Baseball. He's a hypocrite who should know better too.

"what was said by most baseball expert outside the org (except Bobby V)"

Though, you seem to act like Bobby Valentine is some kind of clueless idiot, he's managed in Japan, watched Kaz played, and I'm sorry to say has a lot more judgement than you make him out to do. I think he knows what he's talking about. Should the Mets listened to him more, defintely. His worries about Kaz were definetly genuine.

"Then you talked about crap, a biased NT news media and Kaz getting an unfair amount of crap."

You name me one Mets player who has the amount of negative press Kaz has, then I will believe you. Not even Roger Cedeno, Mo Vaughn, or Roberto Alomar who were worse didn't even recieve the level of negative press Kaz recieves.

Oh, crikey, you still don't know when to stop.

We know how Kaz does on the road (worse than at home) where the fans don't ride him. So I don't know if what you say is accurate. One never knows, so the caveat is valid.

On Bobby V, he isn't my favorite manager, but he knows baseball. I was making a simple distinction becasue you had previously made the point, many times, that the Mets should have listened to Bobby. I have no idea why you think i was making him out to be a clueless idiot and nothing I wrote suggests that. You have never posted the rationale why the Mets should have listened to Bobby more than the several other experts. No, you can't use hindsight to answer.

We can agree on Joe Morgan, I think. A buffoon.

Kaz got alot of boos and bad press. There were some really bad posts on some boards. But I have to tell you, Roger Cedeno got it much worse. Incessant, merciless and vociferous. Nothing close to what Kaz gets. Alomar got it like Kaz. he was an All-Star who lost it. Same case, Mets fans sold a bill of goods based on past performance. Couldn't reproduced the results.

Mo Vaughn, just a big mouthed out of conditioned ballplayer who should never have been signed. he was run out of town. He got all sorts of grief.

Funny how Tuffy Rhodes runs his mouth and 10 years of stardom mean little. If he gets blacklisted, would that be fair or nice?

"Funny how Tuffy Rhodes runs his mouth and 10 years of stardom mean little. If he gets blacklisted, would that be fair or nice?"

Tuffy Rhodes decided to cricitize his teammates and coaching staff, I can't say I feel sorry for him. Also, he declined to take part in a customary hero interview, which was rude and ingorant, given the popular player he's in Japan.

Do, I feel sorry for him that he signed with Yomiuri, yes. It was a mistake to sign there, there yes. Do, I feel sorry for Rhodes' action no. Rhodes decided to open his mouth, and now he's paying for it.

"You have never posted the rationale why the Mets should have listened to Bobby more than the several other experts. No, you can't use hindsight to answer."

Bobby Valentine and Bob Whiting are experts on the game of baseball in Japan. Though, Valentine warned the Mets, but Wilpon and Duquette ingorned Valentine, and now Valentine concern's have all but came true. I have never really seen Mr.Whiting quotes on Kaz, so I won't post on what he said.

He's in a no-win situation. Reyes was the top prospect in position to play shortstop when they signed Kaz. No matter what he does he won't please Mets fans, it doesn't matter how good he plays they don't want nothing to do with him. The Mets front office needs to trade Kaz to let him have a new start somewhere else. It can't be fun for Kaz to constantly go through this all the time.

OK, I buy that. Tuffy has to take responsibility for his actions. Personal responsibility. Hmm.....as in suffering the consequences for the disappointments one creates. Hmmm.......

I'm waiting to hear from The Duke on this subject. Come on Duke!

Obivously, the Mets would love to dump the bum, but nobody would pick up even half of that contract.

I wouldn't call Kaz a bum. He's just challenged. But true, the Mets would have to eat a huge part of his contract to move him.

One would think though that if his sole problem was playing at Shea as a Met,before an unappreciative and hostile fan base, there would be much more interest in picking up this fallen All-Star's contract. He'd be like a hidden treasure. Makes perfect sense to me.

On Bobby, I know what you wrote John (many times), but if there are 20 or more baseball experts touting Kaz, getting eyewitness accounts of Kaz from MLB players, why should the Wilpons ignore all of them and just listen to Bobby V, who they fired. Makes no sense.

You know what, the whole notion of trashing the Wilpons for wooing Kaz, rolling out the red carpet and paying him a Godzilla salary is wrong. They performed. They went after the best Japanese player after Ichiro and Godzilla. What's wrong with that? Kaz didn't live up to his billing, that was based on his past performance and the money he demanded.

Come on, admit that this whole affair was just one sorry mess for all concerned.

"You know what, the whole notion of trashing the Wilpons for wooing Kaz, rolling out the red carpet and paying him a Godzilla salary is wrong."

What's wrong is how the Mets organization has left Kaz out to feel the burn by the fans and the press. At least the Yankees, have supported Hideki Matsui. Even if Kaz was with the Yankees, he would have done better, at least they wouldn't left him out to burn.

"We know how Kaz does on the road (worse than at home) where the fans don't ride him. So I don't know if what you say is accurate."

Though we also knows he been injured a lot in his major league career, so I not so sure if I'm convinced he would be such a flop as you say he would be somewhere else.

"On Bobby, I know what you wrote John (many times), but if there are 20 or more baseball experts touting Kaz, getting eyewitness accounts of Kaz from MLB players, why should the Wilpons ignore all of them and just listen to Bobby V, who they fired. Makes no sense."

Give me one of these quotes said about these so-called experts. The Mets should have used more rational thinking in the decision, I well aware of all the people the Mets talked to.

Let me ask you a question though, though why would the Mets sign Kaz when they have a top prospect in Jose Reyes at shortstop. Like Valentine said he was in a "no-win situation". Mets fans want nothing to do with Kaz, they just want him out of town, they don't care how he plays.

"Come on, admit that this whole affair was just one sorry mess for all concerned."

Is this affair a sorry mess for all sides concerned, yes. Though, it's sorry for Kaz he has to deal with the amount of negative criticism he has been subject to. Is it a loss for the Mets, yes. They had a lot to gain if he did well. Though there response to Kaz's struggles and shortcomings were less than satisifactory.

The Mets do seriously need to trade him, there were rumors of trading him to SF. If the Mets do pick up part of the salary, a trade could happen.

You are repeating yourself over and over and your points weren't very strong the first time. Your new points are just rambling.

At some point, one has to start producing. Both teams made excuses, but as was pointed out, that only lasts so long. Both Matsuis got off slow. Godzilla picked it up. Kaz didn't. What do you want the Wilpons to do exactly, that they haven't done?


How do you know Kaz would have done better with the Yankees? Support your statement.

I pointed out the fact that Kaz does worse on the road, but conceeded that we won't really no. You respond by saying I said he was a flop. Again, rewriting or misunderstanding what I say.

Well, the entire Mets scouting department liked Kaz. They hire professionals you know.Many MLB players who made the trip to Japan said the guy was the real deal. Bob Whiting (quoted somewhere on this site) was very positive.But so what, Is your premise that the Mets shouldn't have sihgnd him. Then you cite Bobby V? So the logical conclusion is the Mets should not have signed him because Kaz Matsui is not very good to begin with?

They signed Kaz because they believed, based on the reports, that he was at least as good a shortstop as Reyes and under the belief that Kaz would not sign with a team to play anywhere other than shortstop. So, the show Matsui respect and consideration, as well as to land him, they asked Reyes to make the shift. In other words, they went out of their way to placate Kaz's ego.

I really think I am debating someone who is mentally challenged. You repeat yourself and your logic is quite poor. I can see you are broken.

I'm going to go know, but I'll be back if you don't have the good sense to quit embarassing yourself. Better worry about your O's.

"How do you know Kaz would have done better with the Yankees? Support your statement."

The Yankees media empire as much as we hate it has stuck with Godzilla threw his good times and his bad times. Unlike, what the Mets have done with the Kaz Matsui situation. They have done little to calm the fire that has followed the aftermath. Have they stuck with Kaz, maybe. Though they do little to calm the situation.

"Then you cite Bobby V? So the logical conclusion is the Mets should not have signed him because Kaz Matsui is not very good to begin with?"

I don't use it as a conclusion that Kaz isn't very good, I use it as one that Kaz was in a no-win situation he was replacing a person Mets fans saw as a already well-capable candidate in Jose Reyes. Many, Mets fans here were ingorant about Kaz before he even played a game.

"So, the show Matsui respect and consideration, as well as to land him, they asked Reyes to make the shift."

I agree, the Mets shown him a level of respect by putting him at short, but they quickly changed there mind by moving him to second. I agree that it better for Kaz to play at second base, but the fact still remains the Mets still have done little to calm the Kaz situation.

Please, if you're trying to tell me Kaz is enjoying his time in Shea you are clueless. He's playing with a bruised ego and a damaged level of confidence.

"I really think I am debating someone who is mentally challenged. You repeat yourself and your logic is quite poor. I can see you are broken."

I'm really impressed, that Mets fans have such a problem with people that seem to get so much of a fit when someone think Kaz isn't such a failure as a lot of there fans put him out to be.

Your logic and arguements here have been broken here by your constant persistence to call me names such as Foster Brooks, mentally challenged, racist, petulent, inconsistent, senseless, hostile, flimsy, and have a double standard.

Take a look in the mirror, you have flinged every name in the book at me.

"Better worry about your O's."

I see you have restarted your attack on the Orioles, how sad. It's sad for you to bring the Orioles up in this discussion, your rational thinking is there now?

I made no attack on your O's, only a suggestion to keep an eye on them. And Godzilla, you forget that he is actually playing very good ball and has for most of his time in NY. He doesn't hole up in Florida and sulk like the Mets erstwhile second baseman. As far as the no win-win for Kaz, why didn't HE take Bobby V's advice? Surely his advisors told him the situation he would face. But no, under my "you know what doesn't stink" model of behavior, it must be someone else's fault. As for calming the situation, I think the Mets did the best that they could do, remove him to Florida out of harms way and put him in the cooler. Bruised ego and lack of confidence, whose fault is THAT!!!! What else do you expect the Mets to do. It's alot more than the Japanese teams do for Petagaine, Kapler, Rhodes and every other foreigner they no longer have use for.

Your repetative arguements are very weak as you grasp for some semblance of sense. You flail away to place blame for Kaz Matsui's shortcomings.

Oh the outrage..the injustice....

Not sure what your story is, but it can't be good. All those adjectives sure describe you. Sounds like a persecution complex.You certainly are tormented....and a blabbering idiot, sorry to say, but Oh so true!.

You are quite a piece....Now go to bed and be a good boy. Brooks Robinson will sprinkle stardust in your eyes if you behave.

"And Godzilla, you forget that he is actually playing very good ball and has for most of his time in NY. He doesn't hole up in Florida and sulk like the Mets erstwhile second baseman.:

Godzilla doesn't sulk around because the Yankees, their team, and the their news media YES support him to the fullest and don't leave him to sulk in Port St. Lucie.

"As far as the no win-win for Kaz, why didn't HE take Bobby V's advice?"

For not taking the advice, I agree it was a mistake he shouldn't have signed w/the Mets. It would have been much better to sign with the Angels, Dodgers, Mariners, or Yankees. Though, the Mets shouldn't have told there fans that there were going to put someone at shortstop when we have Jose Reyes, he's in a no-win situation. They should also do more to put out the fire, too. I see that it's hard for you, for anyone to disagree with you about Kaz Matsui.

"It's alot more than the Japanese teams do for Petagaine, Kapler, Rhodes and every other foreigner they no longer have use for."

Do you have any knowledge of what you say, or are you as clueless as you claim me to be?

Rhodes was a fan favorite in Japan. Petagine was another one in Japan. Kapler failed in Japan, that wasn't Yomiuri's fault.

Rhodes decided open his mouth and criticize Yomiuri's coaching staff and his teammates. He dug his own grave. Yomiuri isn't the center of the NPB as much as the Yankees are the center of MLB. The Seibu Lions have erected a statue of Alex Cabrera outside of the Seibu Dome, numerous Japanese teams have made Americans managers.

Does, Kaz need to work on thing yes, his fielding needs work on, but his hitting is acceptable. He has been injured this year, so it has been unfair for you to tell me how Kaz would do this year if he was healthy.

"Your repetative arguements are very weak as you grasp for some semblance of sense. You flail away to place blame for Kaz Matsui's shortcomings."

You seem to carry on and on some kind of crusade. You seem like your on somekind of some self-rightous crusade where if I disagree about Kaz Matsui, I'm all of sudden wrong.

"Your repetative arguements are very weak as you grasp for some semblance of sense. You flail away to place blame for Kaz Matsui's shortcomings."

I repeatedly said Kaz needs to work on his fielding, I'm sorry you have refused to read my posts on it.

In closing, I will remind those posters who are offended by the entire Kaz matter that Western players unceremoniously get the hook mid-season in Japan. You think anyone in baseball here is concerned about a gaijin's feelings or face? It's all very cut and dried. I also see a thread called American disasters is NPB and a lively discussion of all the American failures in Japan baseball. So I ask all you open and high minded posters, if I came and created a thread in a US or Japan board and called it Greatest Japanese baseball failures, would anyone be offended?

Mr.Guest has made some great points...mainly the quote above. Too bad for little Matsui he is not producing and the media is all over him...cry me a river.Matsui should collect his paycheck with a mask and gun cause he is stealing money. He was over hyped similar to new foreigners coming to Japan. The only one that seems to feel sorry for Matsui is J.Brooks who seems to think he knows all. Personally I am sick of reading Brooks post . Most of his comments must be something he heard, maybe from Peter Gammons.....Sayonara

Wow......this discussion went right into the gutter. I've defended Kaz in the past, he's hurt right now but yeah ultimately it is his shortcomings that are holding him back......that being said, I'm getting really tired of one guest calling people mentally disturbed and using archaic 60s comedian names as putdowns (still waiting for the RED BUTTONS references) If you want to make a point about Matsuis skills or the fact that nobody had a gun to his head and that the Mets were more than fair to him, fine....all those points are valid, but the Brownshirts stuff is just garbage......the biggest japanese bust thread would be fine.....John mentioned Irabu as a huge bust, as a Giants fan, I hated Shinjo (still do)

Knock off the personal attacks......I'd love to just read your opinions on baseball, please keep posting. Just be respectful.

It might be a coincidence, but it seemed like up-and-in also had the same tone and pattern to their post as guest.....if you're two different people, I apologize for even making the insinuation, if you're the same person, just post as the same person.

Grow up and get a real job!

Kaz stinks! I love the Mets and was so optimistic about Kaz coming to the big apple! Ive never made more excuses to friends about any other player but after almost two seasons, the jurys back and he is plain awful.

Hes certainly not the root cause for the Mets mediocrity (although theyre still in the race) but he has not performed as expected. Come on Brooks, read the stats!!!! I hope he does succeed with another club but to stand by him??? tsk tsk, what a fool!

Actually, Mr. Badteacher, I want to take that comment back and apologize, although I was again put off by your call for selective discussion. But I agree on the personal attacks. My motivation was based on the tremendous amount of ill-will and vile posted by Brooks against the NY Mets, it's fans and the press.

The Brownshirt stuff is not garbage, If Brooks wants to cite a few stupid and derogatory postings toward Matsui, the Japanese ballplayer on a Mets website and conclude that many or most NY fans are racist, then I can use the Nationalist demonstrations at Yakasuni (500 people?)as a flawed and ridiculous way to conclude that many or most Japanese are Nationalists. If you think the Brownshirt stuff is garbage, you ought to denounce Brooks' indictments on New Yorkers are garbage. I note you did not.

Couple of other things...I am not related to the other Guest poster who weighed in. Foster Brooks was the drunk acting comedian from the 70's.After reading the young Brooks posts all over this site, the visual of Foster pontificating came to mind. Sorry you didn't like Shinjo. I did, even though he couldn't hit MLB pitching. He had spunk, though he whined about being traded. As for a biggest Japanese bust thread, isn't the discussion of Kaz Matsui one big discussion of the biggest bust yet? Yet, it does not seem allright to discuss it, because it brings out the emotions and beliefs (not opinions) of many.You can't have a debate over beliefs.

As far as Kaz goers, it's a sorry tale. he did not start running in Florida this weekend. Willie randolph said he appears to be a ways off. It wouldn't surprise me that he stays in Florida until the rosters expand to 40 in September. Omar Minaya is hot on the trail for Soriano as his replacement. Even Jeff Kent was inquired on. (Ouch)I really wish it all worked out for Kaz and the Mets.

"So I ask all you open and high minded posters, if I came and created a thread in a US or Japan board and called it Greatest Japanese baseball failures, would anyone be offended?"

Mijow-san already discussed this earlier, I said Irabu would get my vote. Mac Suzuki and Tahakito Nomura, a Brewer wouldn't be far behind.

"Matsui should collect his paycheck with a mask and gun cause he is stealing money."

That's funny, a contract's a two way street. Mr.Wilpon and Duquette also signed him to that contract too. It's nothing more than what Mo Vaughn was doing when he sat on the DL for a year. I didn't hear you complain then.

"Most of his comments must be something he heard, maybe from Peter Gammons"

Like I said already said earlier I don't believe in the so-called baseball writers like Gammons and Neyer. So, I don't where your going here.

Here's a e-mail I recieved from Mr. Whiting.

I like to first think Mr.Whiting for taking the time to e-mail me and use this e-mail here back this morning, when he's in Norway.

"All I know is that everyone else I knew who was qualified to
make such a judgment two years ago predicted that Kaz Mastsui would be a
big success. The only person I know who expressed reservations was
Ihara, Matsui's former manager who complained that Kaz was letting
injuries get the better of him and was losing his hunger (which I wrote
about in MOI). I'm sure if Bobby Valentine had been managing the Mets
he would have signed Kaz Matsui in an instant."

I think Whiting is right here, if Valentine was manager the Mets would have still signed Kaz. Though I think his transistion would have been easier. I wondering though Ihara's reservations were one that genuine. Though I agree if Kaz, went to the majors w/these injuries that his problem, but I think his first year wasn't as bad as it was put out to be.

"When I interviewed Kaz before he left for Mets camp in 2004, I asked him
why he picked such a barn of a ballpark like Shea Stadium to play in. I
said you'll never be able to hit many home runs there. He said that was
ok. He wasn't home run hitter, anyway. And that he was going to bunt
his way on base...use his speed. Steal bases. I said that wasn't
exactly what everyone was expecting. He said he knew that and that the
only thing he could do was his best."

I agree with Whiting concerns here, I don't know why Kaz would sign w/the Mets as the hitter he is. He said he was going to bunt his way on and steal bases, this I do agree led to some of the resentment towards Kaz, though I don't think the Mets should have said they were getting a different type of hitter. I have said repeatedly that he would be better off in Seattle, Los Angeles, or Anaheim. These parks are more friendly to the type of hitter Kaz is.

"The Kaz Matsui I saw in Japan was a terrific player. The Kaz Matsui I see
in a Mets uniform looks like somebody else entirely. My guess on Kaz,
and its only a guess, is that he just got psyched out. He wasn't used
to the infield grass, the two-seam fastball, the NY crowds and the NY
press, among other things."

I agree here again with Mr.Whiting, I think Kaz might have underestimated the culture change a little bit, the crowds might have got to him, and the press most of all. Hideki was the Yomiuri Giants star player, for the Giants(the biggest market in Japan), he was more prepared for the media and fan blitz than Kaz was.

"Ichiro once said to me when I asked him about which Japanese ballplayers
could make it in the states that the question was impossible to answer.
A guy could have all the physical ability in the world and still not
make it because of his mental makeup. Maybe that has been the problem
with Kaz. It's certainly been the problem with a lot of big-name gaijin
ballplayers in Japan. They have the ability; just get freaked out by the
strangness of it all (think Dave Johnson, in his first season and a
half with the Yomiuri Giants, for one. Clete Boyer said he thought
Johnson was on Mars.)"

I agree here, again. Ichiro is right here, I'm not so certain about which players will be in the majors or not. The player could be the biggest star, but flop. It goes the same both ways, Gabe Kapler and Dan Miceli did it this year. Like Whiting said former Oriole Davey Johnson seemed to have this problem, though he was also faced w/an un-real task of replacing HOF great Shigeo Nagashima. The fact Davey said he was going to hit 50 HR's didn't help either. Though, Davey did hit 19 HR's in 2 months in his 2nd year in 76.

"Some of the NYTimes reporters I know keep telling me they think that Kaz
is simply afraid--he's afraid of these big guys barreling down the pike
to break up the double play; he's afraid of the inside high fastball.
(Those are things he seldom saw in Japan.) But I'm sure that's not
something you'll ever get his teammates to say publicly."

I agree Kaz might not have saw these things in Japan, players sliding to break up a double play and a inside high fastball. These might be another reason why it's harder for him to adjust. Though I think Kaz needs to work more on his fielding, he hasn't really had a full healthy season, where we can have a fair judgement on him.

"He's also had more than his share of phsyical problems--back, eyes, et.
all What the mental connection there, if any, is unclear."

I agree with Mr.Whiting here too, I really don't think there's a mental connection here. I think it's unforunate Kaz hasn't played a full healthy season in the majors yet.

"All I know is Kaz has the potential to do a lot better than he has been
doing. It's a real pity, what's happened. A change of venue would
probably help him. Seattle could use a good infielder."

I also agree here too, Kaz had a ton of potential. I still think he has potential. Kaz has been injured throughout his major league career, we really haven't been able to get a fair judgement or assesment on him. I also think a change of venue wouldn't hurt.

I like to greatly thank Mr.Whiting again for taking the time to respond back to me.

"The Brownshirt stuff is not garbage, If Brooks wants to cite a few stupid and derogatory postings toward Matsui, the Japanese ballplayer on a Mets website and conclude that many or most NY fans are racist, then I can use the Nationalist demonstrations at Yakasuni (500 people?)as a flawed and ridiculous way to conclude that many or most Japanese are Nationalists. If you think the Brownshirt stuff is garbage, you ought to denounce Brooks' indictments on New Yorkers are garbage. I note you did not."

Now your statements are getting out of hand, I've condemened selective Mets fans for their treatment of Kaz, I never said all Mets fans were racists. Where did I ever say in this topic All Mets fans are racists? Or is this somekind of straw-man arguement? I said selective Mets fans were racist for using a degorative term, should I've worded my statement a little better maybe, though I never called the majority of the Mets fanbase racist.

So you keep on digging, McFly?

Go back and read your litany of posts and denounciations. While you later backpeddled to say some, after prodding, you have a brazen history of indicting NY, its fans and press for racist dispicable behavior. Now that is what I call out of hand.

The best way to get out of a hole, Mr. Brooks, is to stop digging.

If you want to say some Met fans have been harsh on Kaz, I'll agree

If you want to say some fans used a deragatory word (the J word is offensive, but not sure if its racist)toward Kaz, I'll agree.

If you say that Kaz has been a disapointment to all, with unfortunate results all around, I'll agree.

Continue on your current tack and I will persist.

Mind if I jump in here again since the flames have rekindled? Aside from the personal attacks being traded back and forth, I think this argument has had merit and I definitely see both John and Guest:Guest have softened their stances somewhat on Kaz... just not on each other. So let me address what I've seen to try and disperse these bad feelings between you two:

Both of you should look back to the beginning of this thread to see why the bad feelings started...

John: Please note that the only time you refer to "selective Mets fans" or "parts of the NY media" is when you're defnding yourself against accusation. In most other cases, you do tend to use blanket statements about THE Mets fans, THE NY media or "doom and gloom Shea"... the picture you have been trying to paint is one where Kaz has no friends in NY, be it the fans, the media or the management. I'll note a couple of my observations about this later, but I think this is a main sticking point driving up the anger level in the conversation.

Guest: While you have softened your position, please look back at your first couple of posts. "Your boy Kaz?" "One of your best?" These statements do lead one to believe that you're not just judging Kaz as an individual, but rather you're using Kaz as an example of Japanese players in general. You also make blanket/authoritative statements that you're in no position to make, like how you "know" that Kaz wouldn't be able to perform outside of Shea. None of us know that... none of us know how Kaz will play once he returns to the Mets lineup. How *could* we know that?

Also, to both of you, this need to antagonize/belittle each other personally really weaken your positions rather than strengthen them... all of us are obviously speaking in opinions here, and that can be pointed out quite nicely without resorting to the namecalling which has been going on here. None of us can truly speak in facts unless the people we're discussing actually came on here and told us what's going on... which isn't going to happen. But it's fun to debate these things with fellow fans, and that's exactly how this should be viewed... as a fun debate, where bashing on each other is not allowed. None of us are the "authority" here...

I have an idea where some of this vitriol started, and might be the core of John's position... feel free to correct me if I'm way off though, John, as I don't want to put words in your mouth. But you really don't strike me as "Kaz Matsui's #1 fan", and your defense of him isn't only motivated by saving his good name... your position seems to be more a position against a fairly vocal group of Mets fans who have decided to use Kaz's underachievement as some sort of proof that NPB/Japanese players are somehow of less quality than other baseball players. Hence the calls of "racism" and "ethnocentrism" being thrown about...

But your choice of defense against this seems to be that in fact Kaz *hasn't* underperformed, and that's a tough position to take with the numbers that were put up... I think where you need to soften is that people do have a right to criticize Kaz's performance so far. He didn't deliver what was expected, so there is definitely room for criticism... what isn't right is to extend that bad performance beyond Kaz himself.

I also think it's at least somewhat mistaken to lump the whole NY media together either... I watched a fair amount of Mets games during Kaz's first year, and the commentators in those games were *very* quick to try and defend Kaz. They talked a lot about how it was tough to get used to the new surroundings, even making the point that his home field in Japan was a turf field... and how he might just be having trouble getting used to the bounces on grass.

They even talked a lot about another factor in Kaz's high error count which hasn't been brought up here yet. Remember that for a number of Kaz's games in his first year, he was working with first baseman Mike Piazza... imagine that you're trying to get used to a whole new country and on top of that, you're throwing to a total novice at first! The fact is that a good first baseman will make the rest of the infield look better... if Derek Jeter throws a ball off-line and Giambi makes a BIG stretch to catch that ball, no damage done. If Kaz throws a ball off-line and Piazza can't come up with it, more than likely the error would end up on Kaz... it seems more often than not the error will end up on the thrower rather than the catcher.

So at least one part of the Mets media *was* trying to defend Kaz... as I said in my previous post, though, is that Kaz also has to pull his weight too. The media can't do it alone, and sadly all they could do with Kaz's numbers was to keep on making excuses about adjustments and injuries... the Yankees media had it easy fending off any criticism of Hideki simply because he put up numbers to be envied by *any* player in *any* league.

To see the Yankees media be tested, you have to look at Jason Giambi... he was in a very similar situation in 2004 that Kaz is in now. Consistently underperforming and complaining of "parasites", the Yankees fans were all over Giambi with boos and (I'm sure) plenty of hate mail, hate posts and angry calls to talk shows. The Yankees media tried their best to defend him for a while, but after many months even they started to call for Giambi to get sent down to the minors until he could produce again... well, look at him now. He seems to be getting back to his old form, and suddenly it's "the return of the Giambino!" The fans are right back behind him, as is the Yanks media outlets...

So if Kaz can come back and become a clutch guy for the Mets in the middle of a September playoff run, you can bet that all of his detractors would fall right in line behind him, supporting him all the way. The problem will be that he'll have to start the comeback with the fans still on his back and the media's hands tied... he'll have to do it on sheer drive, and that seems to be the big question mark over Kaz's head.

I'd like to write more here, but I have to leave... so as a conclusion of sorts, let me put down some things I think we can all agree on about Kaz, again in the hopes of trying to douse some of the flames here:

1. Kaz was a great player for the Lions, and he definitely has tremendous talent. You can't put up numbers like he did in NPB without it...

2. The Mets did overhype Kaz, but certainly had every reason to think he would deliver on that hype considering these same numbers he put up in NPB...

3. Kaz *hasn't* performed up to his talent so far for the Mets, for whatever reason.

4. We all seem in agreement that we really would like to see the Kaz Matsui from the Lions show up in MLB and excite the American crowds... none of us are actually wishing ill will on Kaz, are we?

5. There are some Mets fans and possibly some elements of the NY media who may be criticizing Kaz too harshly for whatever reasons... and Kaz deserves to take some criticism for his performance, but no more or less than anyone else with his skill performing as he did.

6. Any fans or media who decide to use Kaz's underachievement as some sort of proof that NPB players or Japanese players can't cut it in MLB are overgeneralizing at best and bordering on racism at worst... there are more than enough NPB-to-MLB success stories to completely disprove this argument.

Does this seem reasonable to people?

- Stevie

"I have an idea where some of this vitriol started, and might be the core of John's position... feel free to correct me if I'm way off though, John, as I don't want to put words in your mouth. But you really don't strike me as "Kaz Matsui's #1 fan", and your defense of him isn't only motivated by saving his good name... your position seems to be more a position against a fairly vocal group of Mets fans who have decided to use Kaz's underachievement as some sort of proof that NPB/Japanese players are somehow of less quality than other baseball players. Hence the calls of "racism" and "ethnocentrism" being thrown about..."

My position is against the statement above that said:

"Face it your boy Kaz Matsui isn't very good, no matter what ball park he plays in or MLB he plays for. Face the facts and don't pass the blame."

This statement really struck a chord with me, as none of us know what Kaz will do outside of Shea and what he will do when healthy.

Also, the treatment Kaz has been subject to has sickened me. I am a Kaz Matsui fan, but I'm not Kaz Matsui's number #1 fan, and not going to sit here and going to ingore his shortcomings in fielding, I've said over and over he needed to work on his fielding in this topic. The level some Mets fans and some media have reported on Kaz has sicken me, I can't remember anyone at Shea that has been subject to worse treatment.

The Kaz Matsui situation is really unforunate, both sides have really lost on this situation. Mr.Whiting's opinion above on pre-Kaz and present-Kaz Matsui situation is one that is interesting.

I'm might have misstated my points a little to where I might be misrepresented, but I don't claim to call all Mets fans racist, like Mr.Guest claims I have.

"So at least one part of the Mets media *was* trying to defend Kaz... as I said in my previous post, though, is that Kaz also has to pull his weight too"

The media has got better on Kaz, there has been some nice pieces on him in the NY Daily News.I think there was another in Newsday about Mike Piazza last year, about Kaz high error total. Though I'm just disgusted by the level of negative press he has had to recieve.

"But your choice of defense against this seems to be that in fact Kaz *hasn't* underperformed, and that's a tough position to take with the numbers that were put up... I think where you need to soften is that people do have a right to criticize Kaz's performance so far. He didn't deliver what was expected, so there is definitely room for criticism... what isn't right is to extend that bad performance beyond Kaz himself."

Though Kaz's year wasn't as bad as it was put out to be offense wise last year. Does he need work defense wise, yes. I perfectly fine in people criticizing and questioning Kaz. His injuries have blinded judgement on us this year and last year, is it fair for us to question what he would do last year if healthy, I can buy that, sure. Though, I would prefer to reserve my judgement until Kaz plays a full major league season which he hasn't.

"I have an idea where some of this vitriol started, and might be the core of John's position... feel free to correct me if I'm way off though, John, as I don't want to put words in your mouth. But you really don't strike me as "Kaz Matsui's #1 fan", and your defense of him isn't only motivated by saving his good name... your position seems to be more a position against a fairly vocal group of Mets fans who have decided to use Kaz's underachievement as some sort of proof that NPB/Japanese players are somehow of less quality than other baseball players. Hence the calls of "racism" and "ethnocentrism" being thrown about..."

Also it stems from some people calling NPB/Japanese players a less quality of MLB, and calling for the Mets not to sign another Japanese player, but I haven't brought them here up.

Though, this attitude disturbs by some Mets fans and some in the NY media bothers me.

Thank you Steve for a very balanced analysis.

First, I am really not the prick my posts may make me out to be. However, when I get my fill of what I see as unreasonable and insulting declarations, I let loose and I don't hold back. I also do not suffer fools easily. Chalk it up to cultural difference. A native Japanese may feel what I mean, but not necessarily express it the same.

Second, I am not one of those fans who think NPB is an inferior product. I think any NPB team on any given day, could beat any MLB team. I think the pitchers hold up better than position players if they come over, since a pitcher is more independent and in a way, isolated during the game. A fastball is a fastball, a wicked curve, wicked in any language.

Third, I don't hold Kaz up as an example of NPB inferiority. He just isn't playing well. It's a damn shame, but that the fact.

Fourth, a recognize that Japanese players' success is a source of pride to Japanese. Ichiro is a legend up there with Tony Gwinn. Godzilla is a top notch outfielder, amongst the top 10 I'd say. Kaz isn't cutting it, for whatever reason. His poor play hurts. All I can say is take the good with the bad. Every export isn't going to be a star. Japanese fans should have the confidence in the quality of the NPB game that they should not look for every export to be a hero and conquer MLB. The NPB game is great no matter how well its exports do.

I don't know Mr. Whiting, though I've read his Wa book. I appreciate his input and respect his thoughts. He knows alot more about this than me. I really don't think that we expected Kaz to be a home run hitter. He was expected to use his speed, try to bunt on base or sacrifice and to be a gap, doubles hitter. He was supposed to be a GG infielder. Kaz's challenges that Mr. Whiting outlined are accurate.

I saw some interesting insights from his former manager. The injury issue may be relevant. The only rational answer to Kaz's troubles are physical injury or psychological. I think he has been hurt, from the start...eyesight and back, Not the reported injuries, I think he was damaged on arrival. Then the comment on losing his hunger. If true, that explains the lack of mental toughness. he got psyched out on the infield and pitching...had trouble adjusting. The the fans started getting on him....and he let the negativity affect his approach. It's the opposite of the positive vibes energizing him when the fans cheer and he homers. He wasn't able to compartmentalize these distractions and focus on the game. Godzilla, refering back to the Bushidou post, had that mental toughness, inner strength and discipline. He adjusted. Kaz was a bit soft and has been unable to adjust. Again, it's a shame and you know what, I don't hold it against him because we are all not like Superman.That's what separates the average from the greats.

I thought Kaz might come back, but his recovery is slow and I don't see him a factor this year. The Mets are shopping for Soriano or Kent to play second. The best thing would be for Kaz to be let out of his contract after the season is over, play in Japan and re-establish himself. That might be the best way for all to save face. From this side of the Pacific, there is no shame in taking a big risk and losing. In Japan, its different, but I hope he would be received with open arms and given a fair shot. Just as we all hope that the NY press gives everyone a fair shot as long as they can.

I mostly blame the owners/front office.

Why?

Well, I don't think that they hyped him thinking he was going to stink so badly.

I really think they FOOLED into thinking that he was going to at least be close to the successes of Ichiro and Matsui (Yankees).

Kaz is not to blame for the most part. Yes, he has not performed, not even close, like the player he was in Japan. Because of that he is certainly a BUST. But this only is evidence that Japan is not even close to the level of MLB. This is not a criticism of Japanese baseball, just the facts.

Do you think that the Mets or any team for that matter would give 21 M (is this the correct amount?) to anyone who was going to performed like this?

Me thinks not!!!

On the other hand, I think that Kaz is to blame for a couple of things.

It seems that he doesn't pay much attention to his coaches, he persists in doing things his way (like fielding, obviously his way has not worked).

He also has been resistant to dump those contact lenses or doing something about his eyesight. Don't you think that affects your batting average??????????

Right now I would trade him to any Japanes team for a bag of balls or a couple of bats!!!!!!!

It wasn't just the NY media that went on the hype campaign, though.

To this day, I still have the cover of ESPN the Magazine with Kaz's mug on it. He was featured as the cover story for its "NEXT" issue, and was supposed to be the athlete who would open the floodgates to not only ballplayers, but all Asian athletes in general.

ESPN is notorious for placing much hype on athletes and this was no exception.

Heavy sigh......

And I bet Kaz Matsui loved every minute of it!

I'm sorry guest.....I didn't mean to imply that talking about Kaz as a bust was somehow off limits or selective discussions were the only things that are proper here...............(Michael does try to keep things on topic though, so when he comes back, I'm pretty sure this whole thread will end) I just wasn't happy with the vitriol that was coming out. I agree that using one post or a thread from a website to prove that a certain group is racist is a little ridiculous ( I'm not sure John was trying to paint all Mets fans as racist, he says he wasn't so I'll give him the benifit of the doubt). I also know that as a white guy who rides the trains in suburban saitama every day there is some racism in this country.......I wasn't happy with the brownshirt reference, I think it was in bad taste and I don't think it was necessary. You made some good points but I have to read through this other stuff and your original point gets lost

Anyhow I do accept your apology, I apologize for sending a message of censorship or selectivity and I'm also sorry that the Mets traded us Shinjo too......he was cranky in San Francisco near the end...complaining about Dusty not starting him and stuff.

He heh, well Shinjo was a funny guy. He was what you would call a AAAA player. Way too good for the minors but not quite good enough for the senior league. He would have come around eventually, but the waiting killed us.I liked him anyway. He was chasing a dream...and he wasn't too expensive.

No one's hands are clean when it comes to racism. One has to be on guard every day. One has to deal with the facts.

I'd like to start by saying i'm a life long mets fan. I don't know any met fan that has based the mets failures solely on Kaz Matsui. Has he played a role? Absolutely. I'm tired of hearing about how unfairly Kaz has been treated by the fans. When you constantly strike out swinging at pitches above your head, a foot outside, a foot inside, or a pitch practically rolled to you by the pitcher, you are going to be booed. The fact that he is so popular in Japan will not stop that. I can't count the number of times he would dive over a ground ball only to have to reach back to grab the ball which should've have been a routine play to begin with. As for mets fans feeling cursed, I certainly don't feel that way. Although it most definitely has been a long time since we won a world series, it has only been 19 years. You can't compare that to the suffering red sox fans had to endure until last year, or the suffering cubs fans are still feeling. And as for Kaz being made a scape goat, I again disagree. We will boo whomever is not producing. Braden Looper hears it when he struggles, Mike Piazza has heard it when he has struggled and the list goes on and on. You must have a thick skin to play in New York that's a given, but it's not the only city with that label (remember Donny Moore who killed himself because of the anymosity and hatred spewed by the fans after blowing the lead in the 1986 ALCS. How about Bill Buckner who received death threats for his error). We welcomed Kaz with opened arms, don't forget that it was Kaz who stated he would only play at short stop. The mets even moved Reyes to make Kaz happy and only after a dreadful performance at short where he showed no range did he agree to move to second. He's not the mets only problem but he is one of them. I can only hope the mets are able to move him before the trading deadline, then again I don't think he'll have a problem clearing waivers. Maybe the Mets can work out a deal with the Hawks, Kaz for P. Feliciano. We need bullpen help and we'll happily return Kaz to were he can be a superstar. Thanks.

Swell....now the cavalry comes. I think this wildfire has run it's course though. Everyone, I think, has an understanding of everyone's thoughts.

How is Feliciano doing in Japan?

"How is Feliciano doing in Japan?"

Felicano is 1-1 with a 2.93 ERA in 25 games this year.

http://www.geocities.com/s_borisov/jb2005/05fsh.html

It was sad to see my fellow Met's fans lose patience with Kazuo Matsui so quickly, but I mostly blame the vicious New York media (talk radio, newspaper, etc.).

When he signed, they hyped him as the next Ichiro. They claimed he had more speed and power than Ichiro, and was amazing on defense at shortstop. He could never live up to all the hype.

The fans also are to blame, but so is Kaz himself. He really has struggled offensively and defensively (I watch every Mets game either over internet or on television). His steals are way down. He tries to pull everything when hitting, and swings at pitches way out of the strike zone.

I think the pressure just got to him. The pressure to live up to his big contract. The pressure to live up to Ichiro. The pressure of coming to the USA, learning a new culture and language. The pressure of playing in such a high pressure city like New York.

It's also very possible that he was in decline when he came to the USA. His stolen bases were dropping in Nippon/Japan, and he was trying to hit too many home runs. When the home runs did not come playing in a difficult stadium (Shea Stadium) for hitters, he did not adjust his game.