Kazuo Matsui = NL RoY

Don't listen to a word Brantley says. Khalil Greene has hardly been a ROY candidate. Greene is batting .259, with 6 HR, 34 RBI, 83 hits, 19 2B, and 4 SB. Greene has a .342 OBP and only a .399 SLG pct. [Stats - MLB.com]

Anyway, Matsui has been way better. Matsui has a .277 avg, with 7 HR, 38 RBI, 110 hits, 30 2B, and 13 SB. Matsui has a even .342 OBP, and a .419 SLG. [Stats - MLB.com]

The current favorite for NL ROY is neither Matsui nor Greene, but rather has to be Jason Bay (Pit). He missed almost two months of the season and still has more RBIs, has many more HRs, and has a much higher BA than either of the other two.

He missed almost two months of the season and still has more RBIs, has many more HRs, and has a much higher BA than either of the other two.

Yeah, corner outfielders have a way of outproducing shortstops not named Alex Rodriguez.

He will not get the ROY. His defense is the problem. I live in New York, and it doesn't matter what kind of offensive stats he puts up. His reputation on defense has really affected his image.

Yeah, Bay will probably win it. Another player who's deserving a mention is Chad Tracy, ECU represent!

His fielding hasn't been great this year, but if you look at the stats: Matsui has the most put outs among all the short stops in the National League, and is second in assists.

I am a Yankee fan, but I almost feel sorry for the criticism that Kaz Matsui has received from Mets fans. They are calling him the worst shortstop in MLB. 20 plus errors, can't make the back-hand play, limited range, and weak arm. It does not help that Reyes, who is more talented, was shifted to second base to accomodate Kaz.

I'm a Mets' fan and a huge fan of Japanese baseball, and no one wanted to see Matsui succeed at shortstop this year more than me. I think he can hold his head up for his offensive numbers in his debut season in the majors, but he's simply not cutting it at shortstop.

Anyone who saw Reyes playing shortstop last year must agree that he was simply electrifying and playing with a sense of the game well beyond his years. Obviously the Mets dangled the carrot in front of the much sought after Matsui and part of the package was the promise of the SS position.

Without any doubt in my mind, Reyes wil be playing SS next year for the Mets, he will be the franchise player after Piazza's star wanes, and hopefully the Shea boo boys will get off Matsui's back and he can put up some good numbers next year!

Tigers Baka? I thought I was the only one in New York walking around with a Hanshin Tiger hat on. Many people ask me, "What team is that?"

- Greene is batting .259, with 6 HR, 34 RBI, 83 hits, 19 2B, and 4 SB. Greene has a .342 OBP and only a .399 SLG pct. > MLB.com]

Anyway, Matsui has been way better. Matsui has a .277 avg, with 7 HR, 38 RBI, 110 hits, 30 2B, and 13 SB. Matsui has a even .342 OBP, and a .419 SLG.

Greene's offensive numbers would be the same or more, probably better than Matsui's, if he didn't play half his games in a severe pitchers' park (.789 OPS in road games compared to Matsui's .761 overall). Combine that with the fact that Greene's numbers are much better defensively, measured by just about any fielding metric (even discounting "web gem" appearances), and Greene is more deserving if the season ended today.

But I agree with a previous post that Bay may be more qualified than either of them. And don't forget Akinori Otsuka of the Padres, who's been lights out, but whose numbers don't appear that gaudy on the surface because as a setup guy he doesn't get saves.

- Greene's offensive numbers would be the same or more, probably better than Matsui's, if he didn't play half his games in a severe pitchers' park (.789 OPS in road games compared to Matsui's .761 overall). Combine that with the fact that Greene's numbers are much better defensively, measured by just about any fielding metric (even discounting "web gem" appearances), and Greene is more deserving if the season ended today.

The fact still remains that just because Greene is better defensively than Matsui shouldn't give him the ROY.

Next, of all, Greene's OPS in road games is .745, and Matsui's is .744. Those two are about equal. OPS is OBP + SLG = total of two.

Greene's splits - MLB.com
Matsui's splits - MLB.com

* [Splits are updated daily, so you may get different numbers depending on how long after August 5, 2004 you view the page.]

Kaz has two things going against him: poor defense and some sportswriters (voters) who don't think an experienced, professional ballplayer from another country counts as a rookie. To feel otherwise would imply that NPB was equivalent to minor league baseball and I can't agree with that conclusion. "Rookie" means an inexperienced player who joins the MLB. I don't think Kaz is inexperienced either.

If his bat stays hot, he'll give Bay a run for his money. If I were a betting man, however, I would not bet that Kaz will win RoY. That's no big deal. What's important is that he contributes to the Mets and realizes his dream fully. He has had a tough road to hoe. He is still adjusting to the grass and the players. Communication needs to be improved. He is not a bad defensive player in a permanent sense; he just has a lot of learning ahead.

Lastly, I don't see a switch to second base this year. Fred Wilpon, for all his shortcomings, is a gentleman who gave his word to Kazuo that he's the shortstop this year - and he plans to keep his word. He might be a lousy owner and baseball man, but he is a man of honor.

- Kaz has two things going against him: poor defense and some sportswriters (voters) who don't think an experienced, professional ballplayer from another country counts as a rookie. To feel otherwise would imply that NPB was equivalent to minor league baseball and I can't agree with that conclusion. "Rookie" means an inexperienced player who joins the MLB. I don't think Kaz is inexperienced either.

So let me get this straight: Some people argue that a player from the NPB is too "experienced" to be eligible for the Rookie of the Year award. But using that logic, do they also accept that years in NPB should count toward Hall of Fame eligibility?

You can't have it both ways - either the player starts off as a rookie and has to spend 10 years in the majors to be considered for Cooperstown; or the NPB is recognized as equivalent to MLB, and all NPB players start their MLB careers as non-rookies with X number of years under their belt which should count toward Hall of Fame eligibility.

Which is it?

I agree with Mijow - they can't have it both ways. If a player's NPB career is considered too experieneced, then players with Negro League background should have not become "National League Rookie of the Year." These players are: Jackie Robinson, Don Newcombe, Sam Jethroe, Willie Mays, Joe Black, and Jim Gilliam who won ROY from 1947 to 1953 except 1948.

Now that's an excellent point! I had not considered that. It does still imply that the Negro League was a minor league, even though they had some great players.

Nevertheless, I think it builds a stronger case for RoY consideration for transplanted and established international players. Remember, that most writers had no problem with H. Matsui. I'm embarassed to say that I can't even recall if Ichiro won RoY. If he did, I'd say the controversy is without merit.

Just curious: is there the equivalent of RoY in NPB? If so, is Benny Agbayani considered for RoY? If so, if he doesn't get it, will it be because there are better rookies or because he's an import? Sometimes putting another's shoe on brings clarity. Setting a precedent would provide support.

Well, your years in the NPB do not matter to MLB (a rule is a rule). But sportswriters are gaining respect for the Japanese Leagues due to the success of Japanese players. So the sports writers are going to give less and less votes to Japanese "rookies" and the league's stance won't change. Seems like it is a "lose-lose" situation for the NPB players unless Major Leauge Baseball decides to change their rules.

I guess we'll cross that bridge when come to it. The HOF is for MLB players, as of now, to be sure.

If a guy like Ichiro or H. Matsui stick around for a long period of time (I don't know if the rule is 10 years) and put up HOF numbers in those years, then I'd think they'd have to be considered. In those cases, I'd also put NPB stardom in the equation.

You look at a guy like Koufax, who had a short MLB career, but put in dominating performance for 6 or 7 years, and you have to say to judge a guy on the time and qulity of the years he played in MLB, not just overall career stats that can be built up over a longer period.

But, yes, why not?

- Kaz has two things going against him: poor defense and some sportswriters (voters) who don't think an experienced, professional ballplayer from another country counts as a rookie.

Though these same sportwriters voted Nomo NL ROY in 1995, Kazuhiro Sasaki AL ROY in 2000, and Ichiro Suzuki AL ROY in 2001.

There's my answer. Should have scrolled all the way down. Not voting H. Matsui RoY was just a bad professional talent assessment, not a slam against NPB. K. Matsui may just not be good enough this year to make it.

- Not voting H. Matsui RoY was just a bad professional talent assessment, not a slam against NPB.

No it wasn't. Angel Berroa was as good a hitter that year while playing a good shortstop, while Matsui played an average left field.

I am a huge Met fan, and as a fan of Pro Yakyu, I wanted Kaz to be everything he was touted as after his signing. Unfortunately, I believe I am one of the remaining handful of people that still applaud him at Shea.

Thanks to lackluster (but improving) offensive skills, his keeping Jose Reyes, a true shortstop, at second base, and defensive skills that would make Marv Throneberry look good, he has become a target for fans in the Big Apple.

If you ask me though, Khalil Greene is everything I hoped Kaz would be, and he's actually a rookie. Greene should get the NL RoY.

- If you ask me though, Khalil Greene is everything I hoped Kaz would be, and he's actually a rookie. Greene should get the NL RoY.

Greene has hardly played good this year. Hasn't given half of what would be offered in Kaz Matsui. The NL ROY should go to either Bay, Matsui, or Ohtsuka.

Okay, looking at the stats, maybe I did overrate Greene's skills, but there are other arguments to make, such as comparing their defensive skills.

In any event, if Godzilla, the superior Matsui, didn't win it last year because Angel Berroa was a true "rookie," then Little Matsui doesn't deserve to win it either. Looking at the Jason Bay argument previously made, I'd say the numbers do point to him as a better candidate than KazMat or Greene.

- Thanks to lackluster (but improving) offensive skills, his keeping Jose Reyes, a true shortstop, at second base, and defensive skills that would make Marv Throneberry look good, he has become a target for fans in the Big Apple.

Puhleeeeease! Matsui's offense is fine for a middle infielder, and while I won't argue that he's shown he's as good a shortstop as advertised, he still can play a middle infield spot. Put Throneberry in a middle infield spot, and you'd see some incredible low comedy. I mean, Throneberry looked bad at first base, the easiest defensive spot on the field.

Jim Albright

I'm wondering if Piazza looked as good as Marvellous Marv at first base?

Matsui is poor defensively and that by itself should hurt him in the RoY vote. Plus, he's on the DL with back spasms for a week or so (23rd).

Hopefully, he'll be a better second baseman.

- I'm wondering if Piazza looked as good as Marvellous Marv at first base?

Yes, just about as good. Lot more useful. Thornberry had no use in Baltimore or New York.

- Hopefully, he'll be a better second baseman.

I doubt the Mets are going to move Matsui to second base. Mets' GM Jim Duquette has already said "he is our shortstop" [Link - MLB.com]. Duquette also said there is no plan to put him at second upon his return or even take grounders at second. So, I don't think they're going to move Matsui to second.

The Marvelous Marv comparison was just metaphoric, but Kaz does seem to have eyesight issues that supposedly add to his fielding struggles. Does he have a history of needing glasses, or having any sort of eyesight problems?

A story in the New York Post today said Kaz may take grounders at second as part of his rehab, but would not play second this season.

If Reyes is healthy next year (a big if), then Reyes most certainly will be manning shortstop. I really don't see that as a big deal. Reyes is clearly the superior defender. If Reyes goes down (which is likely based on his history), Kaz will still see time at shortstop.

As far as the eyesight issue, I am baffled. Glasses should help. If he has night blindness, what's the poor guy to do? Eat carrots and wear infra-red goggles?

There was also a story that Kaz was all set to be a New York Wankee, but could not wait for the firm offer, so took more money with the Mets. Regrets all around, for sure.

[Edited by Admin - Original stated Reyes would be as second next year, but that didn't appear to be the author's intent.]

- A story in the New York Post today said Kaz may take grounders at second as part of his rehab, but would not play second this season.

This article isn't any different from any of the other articles by the New York media. The author speculates Duquette's comments into rumors without basis.

Let's put it this way.

There is no way Matsui-san will play shortstop next season for the New York Mets. He is a defensive liability at that position. Hopefully, he will be able to play adequate defense at second, a position that requires less range. Glavine, Leiter, and Franco all have Wilpon's ear and are not pleased with the overall defense.

Here's some more idle speculation and rumor on a possible move by Kaz to second next year. [Link - The Star Ledger]

I imagine it was a sacrifice for Kaz to put his own interests below the team's. This is one thing that makes great ballplayers. I like Kaz a lot, despite his defensive woes, and think that the best is yet to come.

This could be good for Kaz while he plays MLB. There is actually a bit less competition for the premier player designation in the second base slot than shortstop in MLB, and in general, expectations for power are a bit less. So, if Kaz is on his game, he could be one of MLB's premiere second baseman.

Now it looks like Matsui will move to second base next year. The Mets said that Matsui will take grounders at second base during his rehab. If the Mets feel comfortable with Matsui's progress, it means that he will move to second base in 2005. Mets' GM Jim Duqueete, Mets' COO Jeff Wilpon, and his translator Nozomu Matsumoto met with Matsui to discuss the idea. So, now it does look like Matsui could play second base next year. [Link - MLB.com]

Kaz Matsui will take his first grounders at second base at the Mets' minor league camp at Port St. Lucie, FL. [Link - MLB.com]

It is interesting to see people here even talked about Little Matsui as a ROY candidate. In New York and in America, he was considered a bust and his defense awful. They thought he was going to be Ichiro. The Mets did not pay him all that money to play second base, but now he has to play there because he can't play shortstop. He was better off staying in Japan, or at worst, staying away from the Mets. Everyone who plays for them goes down hill.

Well, at least New York has Big Matsui to make them smile and show how Japanese play the game.

- It is interesting to see people here even talked about Little Matsui as a ROY candidate.

The topic started almost 3 months ago. Go figure.