Korean league and Japanese league, level of play compared to MLB

Yep.

You're absolutely right. Japanese baseball is probably close to Triple-A ball, perhaps a little better. Korean baseball is probably a little better than Double-A. Both are becoming de facto minor leagues for the majors. For that reason, I call Japanese ball Quadruple-A and Korean ball 2.5-A or Double-A East.

Like I have said before, I believe you have to make the distinction between defense and offense. Pro Yakyu is up there with MLB in defense. Personally I think all around defense in Japan is a bit better then in MLB. But offense is the name of the game in North America. If you can hit for power they will open up a spot for you. In this department, the Japanese players are lacking. And it will take a generation of hamburger eating, iron pumping, steroids abusing youngsters to make up for that gap.

Koreans are physically bigger then Japanese, and one would expect more kimchi power hitters. I guess it has something to do with the way the game is taught to youngsters in the Orient.

I have not seen Korean baseball, but I've read that it's more like high Single-A, but AA is close. I have seen several NPB games. I agree on the defense being top notch in NPB, with the offense being less aggressive and with less power.

No one has said anything about NPB pitching, that I would say in general, is pretty close to MLB. Maybe not as many powerful stars, but good, solid pitching nevertheless. Many people think pitching is the key to winning.

Remember, the MLB All-Stars almost got their tails handed to them the last time they went to Japan. Maybe it was the jet-lag, too much carousing in Kabuki-cho (there was some massage parlour there advertising that it was visited by Mike Piazza) or maybe the pitching was just first rate. I think the gracious hosts might even have let them off the hook.

Several NPB teams would more than hold their own in MLB. The style is different, but the quality is there.

I cringe when I see increasingly plumper youngsters eating too much Mickey D in Japan when the local diet is so healthy. Hopefully, they'll avoid the steroids, although I don't think that is the key to home run production. Japanese youngsters are getting bigger and with a healthy diet, intensive weight training, quick wrists, and good hand-eye coordination, they should be producing many more 40/100 players in the coming years.

Are you a Jim Bouton fan?

Yep, Bouton fan all-right.

I particularly like the fact that he still gets a fat royalty check from Maple Leaf for apparently "inventing" Major League Chew (the gum). Smart move if you ask me. Plus his book was one of the funniest things I have ever read. His baseball life was interesting, too, going from a flame-throwing 20 game winner for the Yanks to struggling knuckleball journey man. I just like his life story.

As far as Japanese pitching goes, I think you are right. Japanese pitchers are mechanically sound because they think well. They have to throw a lot which is a drawback, but that is the way Japanese coaches work. Most of them don't consider baseball a sport. They tend to look at it as yakyu-do (as in Ju-do, Aiki-do) = the way of baseball. To them it is not just a sport, it's almost a martial art.

I like Japanese pitchers because they are finesse pitchers with good mechanics. But MLB scouts are always looking for 6'3" guys who can throw gas. They have to project somebody into the future and to be safe (and protect their job) they select "athletes" which equals big strong guys for them. And that's why MLB has ended up being a league full of big physical guys. (Also boring if you ask me.)

But that doesn't necessarily mean they are better players. MLB thinking goes something like this: "You throw me your best and I'll see if I can hit it." A very American attitude (even in modern day politics). If they get tricked by a good pitch they consider you a wanker for not throwing your fastball. This ain't my favorite style and I believe it is one of the reasons Japanese pitchers are not (yet) regarded highly in the U.S. But like Russian and Northern European hockey players, the Japanese will catch up with this phenonmenon and I am sure we will see more of them in MLB in the future.

One name you might want to keep in mind is Arakaki. A guy from Okinanwa who signed with Daiei last year. I would not be surprised if he ended up in MLB in the future.

- Yep, Bouton fan all-right.

[...] Plus his book was one of the funniest things I have ever read.

I kinda liked Bouton as well, but honestly didn't know Jim had a book. What's the title?

You are 100% right on the American mindset for both baseball and "politics." As far as comparison of the leagues goes, I'd say the equivalents given are on target as well. Only, I might even consider pro yakyu to be superior in terms of pitching and defense. Is that something often considered, or is that a step too far?

Japanese baseball is like a recruting post for Major League Baseball teams.

That's what I said. Japanese, and to a lesser extent Korean baseball, have become de facto minor leagues for the MLB.

Methinks you think in simplistic ways. NPB does not exist as a training camp for MLB. While I occasionally like to rail away at perceived injustices, your comment will just insult people or cause the locals to write it off as another stupid American comment. So can it and come clean if you aren't a Yank so others can see that we don't have a lock on ignorance.

Considering the trickle of NPB players to North America, your arguement cannot even hold up based on the facts.

The great thing that the NPB has going for it is the agreement made with MLB in the 1960s that recognized each entity's amateur draft. Therefore, MLB can't pick a Japanese player until he has gone through the NPB amateur draft, is released by NPB, or is a nine year veteren free agent. Likewise, NPB can't get an American player until he has cleared the MLB amateur draft.

Unfortunately, MLB does not have a similar agreement with the KBO or CPBL. That is why we see Korean and Taiwanese high school and college players signed by MLB.

This year the NPB, KBO, and CPBL had an upswing in attendance. The Yomiuri Giants, with 3,763,000 fans outdrew, the New York Yankees with 3,465,600. Furthermore, the Giants (53,800), Hanshin Tigers(47,100), and Fukuoka Daiei Hawks (46,000) averaged more fans per game than the Yankees (42,785).

My hope is that the NPB, KBO, and CPBL stick to their strengths, improve what needs to be improved, and never succomb to being "colonies" of MLB like Latin-America has become.

Glad to see ignorance doesn't have to be American. I think you know very little about Latin American baseball to call it a colony of MLB. There are many vibrant leagues in Mexico, Venezuela, and the Dominican, among others that are focused on their fans and the game, not being a farm system for MLB. Maybe they don't draw like the exalted Giants, but they are popular. They play a brand of baseball that fits well with MLB.

The truth is that a good player from one of these countries can get out of poverty and have a better life for their family by signing with a MLB team. He doesn't have 9 years of indentured servitude, he isn't labelled a foreigner, resigned to one year contracts, or subjected to tedious routine practices or some smug superiority complex. They get pitched to when they have a chance at breaking a record.

Throw the labels around all you want, but players vote with their feet, and they aren't headed to Tokyo in any great numbers.

Those are interesting numbers about attendance Kiyoshi. Assuming they are correct, you should mention that Pro Yakyu plays a 140 game schedule with about 11 home games less then their American counterparts. That makes these numbers even more impressive if you ask me.

But do these teams make money? I would love to see any info on this subject. There always is a lot of talk but no hard facts. Is there anything about the Giants' financial status included in the annual report of the Yomiuri Group?

I just read somewhere that the Dodgers are up for sale. I am not sure about the reasons, but no doubt it is partly due to the fact that they are not making enough money. It is proving to be very difficult to consistently make money with a sports franchise. One of the reasons O'Malley sold the Dodgers in the first place.

That rule from the 1960's is in interesting. It effectively blocks anybody from going to MLB even if they don't enter the Japanese draft? I guess so, it goes a long way to explain why MLB scouts are so hesitant when it comes to Japanese players. They know they can't sign 'em anyway. In other places they sign everybody that shows some talent.

And Steinbrennernot, the truth also is that only 4% of the guys who sign with a scout eventually make it to the ML's. So, yes, Latin guys get a chance, but only a chosen few make it. Less then 1% hits a fat contract. So don't forget about the 96% that don't make it and are back to were they started.

And you say the Latin guys are not labeled as foreigners? Who are you kidding? Unless you are a big star there is racism out there no matter what they say to the contrary. Most guys sign multi-year deals but almost never guaranteed. You can get released when the club feels like it, so what is the big difference with one-year deals?

Nobody is going to argue with you that MLB is not top notch. That's were everybody wants to be for obvious reasons. But many good players don't make it for various reasons, and once they don't make it to a MLB roster consistently, they start voting with their wallets. The choice between a minor league salary and a good contract in Japan is easy. It's a financial escape route (e.g. Rodney Pedraza who came from the AA Tulsa Drillers to Japan, did well and has made decent money).

The majority of ordinary Japanese fans couldn't care less about these Americans players. Let them go home to to whatever league they came from and use the money on a talented Japanese kid.

This isn't talk radio, so let's keep things calm and have room for discussion. You are wrong on at least one count: I am an American. Secondly, I am fan of "beisbol" and "beisbol history."

Yes, the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Puerto Rico, and Venezuela have vibrant Winter Leagues. Colombia, Cuba, Nicaragua, and Cuba have had professional leagues in the past. The Havana Sugar-Kings did belong to the AAA International League. The Inter-American League that consisted of teams from Dominican Republic, Mexico, PR, and Venezuela folded before the end of the season because of bad ownership and lack of support from MLB.

The reasons I call Latin America a baseball colony:

1. The best native players in the winter leagues are under contract with MLB teams.
2. Most winter league teams have a working agreement with a MLB team.
3. MLB teams send their minor league players to work on things before the North American season.
4. The biggest reason is that Caracus, Havana, Maracaibo, Mexico City, Monterrey, San Juan, and Santo Domingo are large cities with rich baseball traditions that are never seriously considered for MLB expansion or team transfer.

Some of these countries have had professional baseball over a hundred years and should be given the opprotunity to host a MLB team.

Please research baseball history and politics before accusing me of being an "ignorant foreigner." Also, let's try to be a little "civil" unlike your namesake.

I agree with Bouton-kun.

In case anyone is mistaken, my reply was to Steinbrennernot's comments about me being an "ignorant foreigner."

Settle down fellas.

Kiyoshi-san, I didn't write that you were an ignorant foreigner, although maybe the latter was implied, with no disrespect for your person. I was commenting on your opinions only. I do know a fair amount about baseball history and plenty about politics. I will say that, along with a chip on your shoulder, you ignore one thing: Economics.

Somehow you are trying to support your racism/colonist argument with the lack of MLB in Latin America. That is specious. The real reason there is no MLB team in Latin America today is the same reason why MLB teams struggle in Minneapolis, Kansas City, and Montreal - economic constraints. MLB is an expensive business. In addition to huge ticket income, there have to be big cable and broadcast cable deals, licensing and concession income. Yes, there are great fans in Mexico City, San Juan, the Dominican, and Venezuela among others, but I do not think the revenue potential currently will support the expensive salaries MLB players command nor the other costs of fronting a team.

MLB and successful local businessmen being the capitalists they are, I guarantee you there would be a MLB team in Latin America if there was enough money in it for all concerned within the budgetary realities of MLB. However, the Expos drew well in San Juan, and while Monterrey Mexico won't get to share the team this year, they are getting the opportunity to present a proposal for a MLB team in the next couple of years. Personally, I think with a new stadium and a cable to the US, a big city Mexican team can be achievable in a few years. That is not to take away from the great ball played and loyal fans in those markets. It's just that MLB is a very expensive game to play and, like smaller US market teams, there are very real economic constraints.

Economics and mutual benefit drives the cooperative relations between MLB and the various Latin American baseball organizations. There are also such relations between some of these oragnizations and some Japanese baseball teams. I don't think that makes the MLB or NPB teams colonists, or are you saying that only Americans can be colonists? What does your knowledge of history and politics tell you? It was regrettably a nearly universal practice among the strong.

Bouton-kun, I am not sure who you are saying labels foreign players. Japanese, Americans, Korean, who? The stats you cite on Latin players are interesting, but I don't know what conclusion can be drawn other than it is very tough to crack the majors, NPB or even high minors. I think that is the case no matter where someone was born. Perhaps that's why MLB salaries are so high. MLB is professional (and greedy) enough to want to field the best players possible within their budget, so as to win and make more money. Ethical issues aside, it is not in their self-interest to indulge in the type of racism that is implied here.

A man has to make a living, and if he can do it better out of his home country, it is his right and there is nothing wrong with trying. You do seem to imply that those who can't find success in the minors find success in Japan. More power to them. The crack about Japanese not caring a hoot about American or foreign players may be true, but I hope not. In that case, national origins are placed over baseball skill, and frankly, that would regrettably imply a form of discrimination.

Then you say all American players can go home. I suppose they could, but those in America who say foreigners should go home if they don't like it here are usually branded gun-totting, right wing, politically incorrect idiots by the great majority who do not share that view. They also can lose their jobs or be forced to step down from high office. Can the same be said elsewhere?

Anyway, a couple of thoughts on your hero Bouton-san. He was a pretty good pitcher in his prime. Ball Four was entertaining. I enjoyed him when he was a sportscaster in New York. I'm sure he is a fine man.

About the book, I personally think that if one is a ballplayer in the public eye, their actions are going to be scrutinized and they should behave accordingly. Jim B. dissed a lot about his team mates though. I think there is a certain loyalty and comraderie in the clubhouse, and personally I think Jim B. crossed the line and violated that loyalty and comraderie in order to make some bucks and to revitalize his name. I wonder whether that was a totally honorable thing to do.

Second, the Big League Chew was a great idea, but some say it also encouraged kids to try snuff and chewing tobacco later on. Chewing tobacco isn't exactly a health tonic, but hey, what's a few thousand extra cases of tongue, lip, and esophogeal cancer? The royalties are sweet. That's nothing to be proud of.

And I say this with all respect and civility. After all, I am from New York.

Your posting is fine. Just one clarification:

Mexico has a 16 team professional AAA summer league that draws big crowds to the ballparks and to the TV sets (ESPN Spanish and regional Fox Deportes en Espanol channels in Mexico broadcast all games of these teams, just like they do with MLB teams in the U.S.)

The Mexico City Diablos Rojos and the Monterrey Sultanes are as popular in Mexico as any MLB team is in the U.S. or the NPB teams are in Japan (excluding the New York Yankees and Yomiuri Giants perhaps).

These Triple-A summer league teams have farm teams in Mexico in the Tabasco League as well (like Japanese teams have farm teams). Baseball level at this league may be about class A.

Again, this is just some clarification.

Tony - thank you for your clarification.

I subscribe to Fox Desportes to watch Winter League games and the Mexican League in the summer. I found a site, Hitazos.com, that indicates a number of lesser minor leagues compared to the Mexican League and Mexican Pacific Winter League. The Mexican League was really big in the late 1940s and early 1950s when MLB clamped down and "Televisa" TV network decided to concentrate on Soccer.

I wasn't trying to minimize the enthusiasm of the fans or the quality of play in Latin America. I know the depth of baseball fanatism in Latin America. What I was saying was that the Asian Leagues on and off the field need to:

1. Accentuate what they are doing right
2. Correct and improve on defificient areas
3. Not let MLB bulldoze them like much of Latin-American baseball was manipulated.

I still believe that MLB takes players from Latin America, but does not try to put permanent teams in key Latin American cities. MLB impeded the Mexican League by branding it an outlaw league until the Mexican League accepted first a AA then later a AAA minor league designation in the 1960s.

(Now I will shut up and refocus on the NPB, KBO, and CPBL.)

I don't mind Steinbrennernot tossing some oil on the fire. Nobody ever died from lively discussion.

I agree economics play a big role in baseball. It probably is the reason why there is no expansion. MLB's economic parameters have not been met. But it is not just economics. A big pile of money won't land you a team. Politics comes into the equation as well. MLB is a very political organisation. Case in point:

The Hawaiian Winter League was a great idea to blend American and Asian ball. Mr. Kurisu funded the league, and although he was a minority owner of the San Francisco Giants (5%), he couldn't get MLB to back him. Because it all became too expensive (no TV deal), the league folded.

So if you don't have MLB support you basically don't stand a chance (particularly with the networks). Not just in the Pacific, but anywhere. Your choice is to either play with them or strike out. Power politics Americaine.

Naturally this attitude draws a lot of resentment. And it is the resentment against these policies (not the people) that I try to express. I am glad we haven't seen any "baseball terrorists" yet .

MLB, in it's quest for globalisation, is now looking to form a minor league in Europe. I am sure they would have prefered China, but baseball and China are like Mao and monogamy. Just not there. I don't think the league in Europe will do much. It will be made for North American TV screens. But once MLB throws it's weight behind it it will role.

Steinbrennernot, the point I was trying to make is that signing with a MLB team is a way out of poverty, and a chance for a better life for only maybe 1% of youngsters signed by scouts. That is not a good bet, no matter how long you look at it. My objection is against the fact that they still hold it up as an example. It's somewhat like hitting the lottery and saying: "Well it wasn't easy but everybody can do it if I can." Yeah, sure.

Baseball power politics exists in Japan, as well, in the person of Tsuneo Watanabe. It's a fact of life. But I do enjoy it when people write the truth about the powerful. They are not saints like they (and their PR companies) would have us believe sometimes. See why I like Bouton?

My intentions were not to declare what systems (MLB, NPB etc.) are better or worse. Hideki Matsui said it is like comparing "apples to oranges."

I believe that the Asian professional baseball leagues need to accentuate their positives, improve their negatives, and maintain their independence from MLB. MLB is a business entity which deems that their interests are best served by having complete control of what constitutes "major league." The National League replaced the National Association as "the major league" in 1876. The American Association, Union Association, Players League, Federal League, and American League are all officially recognized as "major league." But each of these leagues were ignored or labeled as "outlaw" by the National League. The NL eventually conceded that the AL was a major league. The combined NL and AL became MLB.

However, MLB continued the practice of ignoring, devaluing, or discrediting any league that showed any inkling of talent - The Cuban League, Negro Leagues, Mexican League, Pacific Coast league, and Japanese Leagues.

MLB didn't officially recognize the quality of the Negro Leagues until the 1960s, years after their demise. When the "color barrier" was broken in 1947, MLB took the previously "inferior" talent out of the Negro Leagues. Prior to 1947, MLB accepted non-black Latinos, but the breaking of the "color barrier" increased MLB's culling of talent from primarily Cuba, Dominican Republic, Panama, Puerto Rico, and Venezuela.

The Mexican League signed a number of major league players in 1948. MLB immediately banned these players for "life." Most of these players returned to MLB after sitting out a few seasons and were reinstated. But MLB did not officially recognize the Mexican League until the 1960s when the Mexican League agreed to "AA" status (later upgraded to "AAA").

The Pacific Coast League was the last challenge to MLB's status as "major league." MLB expanded to the West Coast in 1958 to dash the Pacific Coast League's plans on becoming the third major league.

Currently, most credible professional baseball leagues in North America and Latin-America are under the "umbrella" of MLB. The Mexican League, Dominican Summer and Venezuela Summer Leagues are directly controlled by MLB as minor leagues. The Caribbean Baseball Federation: Dominican, Mexican Pacific, Puerto Rican, and Venezuelan Winter Leagues operate with the blessing of MLB.

The NPB, KBO, and CPBL have no desire to compete with MLB. They know that their markets are primarily in their respective countries. Likewise, MLB enjoys having access to these countries' baseball fans and baseball talent. MLB teams will continue to play exhibition "goodwill" games with Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese teams.

MLB teams in the past would play "exhibition" games against Cuban, Mexican, and Negro League teams. The key word is "exhibition." In the eyes of MLB, if a MLB team lost a "real" game, their whole credibility would be at stake.

MLB is for "globalization" as long as they are in control and not a participant.

My hope and dream is that MLB would take a chance one day and play the Asian champion. The Asian champion would be determined by a playoff between the NPB, KBO, and CPBL. It would be a true miracle.

(2003 side note: NPB averaged 28,167 fans per game; MLB averaged 28,033 fans per game; and the Mexican League averaged 3,515 fans per game.)

I agree. I enjoyed the historical information. Entertaining. It is, was, and always will be power politics of the sort: their way or the highway. It's how the powerful conduct their business.

Some final comments.

One is to remember that MLB is a monopoly - one of the few monopolies not broken up by the U.S. government. Kiyoshi-san probably knows the name of the case or act. Monopolists act in their own self interest, so their behavior should not be surprising.

The list of historical cases is interesting. I, however, prefer to live in the present and hope for the future. History is an interesting teacher, because the same mistakes are regrettably often repeated until things get righted. If one does not let go of the past, one's perspective of and actions in the present will forever be jaded, causing the future to be negatively and needlessly impacted.

[Link - MLB.com]

Kiyoshi-san, the Evil Empire (also known as MLB) have listened to you and are dispatching a phlanx of crack Bud Selig Lancers to explore Monterey Mexico as a possible site for expansion of their empire - errr - a suitable home for the economically challenged Montreal Expos. There is a local Monterey businessman interested in the franchise.

As I wrote previously, expansion into Mexico and the Americas, is like in the U.S., an economic, not a socio-political matter.

Hey George, I thought the December 12th posting was your final words on this subject. Hahaha!

Happy New Year to you and all.

Robert Kiyoshi Shadlow