MLB All-Star voting vs NPB All-Star voting

Well, Ichiro deserves a spot, but Matsui should not be over Ramirez! It is real. You see a guy on Chunichi get a start in an NBP game? Fans are crazy? We should not do trash talk so much.

In response to the biggot's rhetorical questions:

This is a North American League, why are we letting another country decide who plays in our all-star game? Do we vote for all the American players in the Japan Leagues?

There were a number of good points brought up in that thread, including, yes, you can vote for the Japanese All-Star series over the web from any country. In short, though, I would probably label the guy as a troll and ignore him.

If I were a troll myself, I'd probably reply with something along the lines of, "The U.S. voted an imbecile into the White House. Can they be trusted to vote anymore?" [Please don't reply to that. It was an example of a troll - saying something for the purpose of infuriating people with no tolerance for personal opinion.]

But the arguement that I find most interesting was:

The fact that Japanese fans seem to be outvoting the North Americans just might be a symptom of the declining popularity of the league here at home. If the Japanese are stuffing the ballot boxes, then it's time for the American and Canadian fans to take an interest and do the same.

First of all, I find it hard to believe that Japanese have been able to out-vote North Americans in any MLB forum. There has got to be a large number of domestic votes for these two to make any "ballot box stuffing" from Japan up this high. And seeing as how well these two have been doing lately, I think it's reasonable that a lot of U.S. fans are also voting for them.

Back to your question,

Is [there animosity in] Japanese baseball fans towards foreign-born NPB players like Rhodes & Cabrera?

In the fans? No. There are essentially two kinds of fans here in Japan, (1) those who vote straight their own team, and (2) those who are well educated with all the teams. Within group #1, mostly Giants' fans, they either leave the Pacific League ballot blank or vote for the names they've heard of. And even casual fans have seen Cabrera and Rhodes on the front page of the sports dailies enough to recognize them. How else would you explain former Hanshin Tiger Tsuboi (now with Nippon Ham) as #2 in the Pacific League outfield? (OK, so he is hitting very well this year.) Group #2 simply know that those two sluggers on the same team will give them some fireworks to watch. (Although it looks like a lot of them still think Ogasawara is at first base, and I have no problem seeing him as a viable alternative to Cabrera.)

Nonetheless, the question that you didn't ask is, does the administration hold animosity to foreigners being voted in? I think that some would like to see it be an all-Japanese event. But for the most part, they're probably relieved to see so many foreigners get their share of the votes. If no foreigners were voted on, then certain international organizations would start crying "foul," and start threatening trade sanctions on the grounds of racism in baseball. Rediculous? Wars have been waged for more rediculous reasons.

My impressions of the U.S. of late is that many of its people are turning toward isolationism, and are quick to label anything foreign as bad or evil. It's most likely a minority, but it's certainly getting to be a louder, more annoying, minority. This is in sharp contrast to U.S. business, and MLB in particular, which are all looking to expand into more international endeavors. As MLB expands, I worry that the isolationists will follow, spreading ill will to all.

> There are [...] fans here in Japan [...] who vote straight their own team[. They] either leave the Pacific League ballot blank or vote for the names they've heard of.

I know one guy who votes for two Hanshin teams: one is the Hanshin Tigers, and the other is all the Pa League guys who used to play for Hanshin (Tsuboi, Hirao, Takanami, etc.). It's not me by the way - I relish the chance to see some players other then the Hanshin Tigers once in a while!

Looking at the posts in the MLB boards, there are some rednecks, and some real common sense. That's our United States, all right. Matsui, with his recent hot streak, has made a case for himself, though I doubt even he thinks he is the 2nd best AL outfielder this year.

Frankly, the biggest problem is the voting structure stinks in the States, and apparently in Japan as well. A much better system, proposed by Bill James years ago, would be to make the write-in/web vote one (or split them and make them two if you wish -- one for write-in, one for web) precinct, and the votes in each park another precinct. You then take the placement of each player in each precinct, and add the totals -- the lowest sums is the guys who start. You could make the total vote the tiebreaker. Thus, if the web voting is biased in favor of Japanese stars, that's only one precinct. I'm sure Matsui would be out under this system, because I doubt he'd do well outside of New York, write-ins, and the web. But Ichiro would still do well.

Further, home town voting wouldn't mean much, because while the home team would probably do much better in their precinct than in the others, the real key in doing well would be to rank highly everywhere. As it is, we put ballot boxes everywhere, and some weird results are going to come out of that -- which then prompts all kinds of moaning and groaning.

If one of the perceived beneficiaries of this horribly flawed voting system is a Japanese player who is seen as unworthy (Matsui), the trolls will come out.

As we know, few Americans know much about Japanese ball, and even fewer appreciate the magnitude of Matsui's accomplishments there. They want to see what he does in the majors. Until the last month, the answer was: not much. He's been on fire since, but while he is apt to maintain his overall marks (and probably improve on a few, like homers), it stretches belief to think he can maintain the kind of pace he set in June. I mean, his best seasons in Japan weren't as good as this month would be if it were projected to a whole season -- and that allows for no adjustments for the differences between the majors and NPB.

If we don't give Matsui any credit for his play in Japan, his inclusion in the MLB All-Star game is certainly open to question. This is particularly true since many of the votes for Matsui would have been cast before the last several weeks, when Matsui's season numbers went from marginal for a starter in the majors to arguable for an all-star slot.

Jim Albright

That's a system that makes sense. No wonder they won't adapt it.

True enough. The beauty of the James' proposal is that it still allows the fans to vote, but eliminates much of the potential for abuse. As James points out, in cities where there are lots of knowledgeable fans, they would realize their comparatively few votes could make a real difference. That would encourage them to vote. Further, various fan bases could acquire a reputation for being discriminating voters, and might well try to protect that reputation. Certainly, it wouldn't be worse than what we have, even though it takes a little explaining.

Jim Albright

You know what, it just might get adopted next year if Matsui is elected to start (with his decent, but not great numbers).

- First of all, I find it hard to believe that Japanese have been able to out-vote North Americans in any MLB forum. There has got to be a large number of domestic votes for these two to make any "ballot box stuffing" from Japan up this high. And seeing as how well these two have been doing lately, I think it's reasonable that a lot of U.S. fans are also voting for them.

I am afraid I cannot agree with you. I believe that at least 500,000 Japanese fans voted for Matsui this year, that number is high enough to out-vote other players. That's unfair for other players.

For example, if one famous guy from Korea plays just as well in Japan, and he gets 1,500,000 votes because of Korean fans, he will certainly out-vote any player. How would you feel? I am sure you would get upset that your better players like Takahashi, Nakamura, etc. cannot have a spot to play.

- I believe that at least 500,000 Japanese fans voted for Matsui this year, [...]

50-man is about 1/4th the total Internet votes in Japan, so that figure can be reasonable. Still, a script kiddie appears to have submitted 80-man votes for injured Kawasaki Kenjiro (see this thread), so automated ballot box stuffing by script kiddies sounds like just as reasonable an explanation. And U.S. script kiddies know about anonimizers, which this one apparently didn't.

Perhaps these two incidents will be enough to push for voting reform. Technological band-aids (such as requiring valid e-mail addresses, checking for duplicate IP addresses, etc.) won't do it. For every measure, script kiddies, like the SPAM scum, will find counter measures. The system (voting and e-mail) needs to be revised from scratch. And the Bill James proposal above sounds like it will be fairly resistant to these kinds of "attacks."

- I believe that at least 500,000 Japanese fans voted for Matsui this year, that number is high enough to out-vote other players.

500,000 seems a little high to me, but even if we assume that it is about right, that means that a little over 500,000 American fans voted for Matsui. Only 800,000 American fans voted for Manny Ramirez (if we assume Ramirez got absolutely no international votes). The Japanese fan base can certainly be a big advantage, but I do think American fans deserve as much (if not more) "blame" if Matsui is elected to the All-Star team. Not to mention that Matsui's big upswing in votes was concurrent with this torridly hot performance in June. I think casual fans coming to the ballpark and voting have contributed as much, if not more, to Matsui's election as Japanese voters have.

I don't think there's any question that votes from Japan have had a significant effect on Matsui's votes. However, it is my feeling that no Japanese player could get elected purely on support from Japan. There has to be significant support in America as well.

What I don't like is this tendency to put all the blame on Japan, making exaggerated statements like, "He has a whole country behind him."

As a fan who sees a good amount of Japanese baseball & MLB, and a life-long Yankee fan who watches no less than 120 Yankee games a year, I have to strongly make a case for Matsui.

I believe that an "All-Star" game should showcase all big stars of the game, and Matsui is arguably the biggest international baseball star in the world (playing in just one country doesn't count because you never have to make adjustments to a different type of baseball).

Watching Matsui on a daily basis (on the YES network and in person) has allowed me to appreciate the enormous talent that he has, how well-rounded a player he is, and how well he's adapted to U.S. baseball. Keep in mind the great difference in the number of teams that he has to face in MLB compared to the fewer pitchers he had to face in Japan. I can even say that I have seen him doing certain things better in New York than back with the Giants (playing defense is one of them, consistently advancing the runner on base is another).

In my opinion, Matsui has been a big part of the Yankees staying in first place without Bernie Williams; he has been a "team player" since Bernie went on the DL.

Joe Torre just said over the weekend (maybe it was last week) that Matsui has to be his #1 offensive choice when the Yankees have runners in scoring position because he advances the runners, doesn't swing at bad pitches, and has a lot of experience. This statement from a manager who has Giambi, Jeter, Soriano, Bernie, and Mondesi should be enough "justification" or explanation to have Hideki Matsui on the All-Star starting line-up.

Finally, let's leave politics out of the discussion. I didn't like when you insulted my president (even if you didn't mean it). Let's illustrate our points with other type of examples. Remember that this is truly an international forum, visited by many (like me) who love both Japan and the U.S. (Please no answers to this last paragraph, let's get back to baseball talk!!)

Certainly, among the veteran (say over a year) regulars of these forums, we won't argue too strenuously against Matsui as an All-Star, even given that his MLB stats are not overwhelming for that honor. The reason for that is, in general, that we have an appreciation of what he accomplished in Japan, and what that means. I think we can all agree that most American fans are not that knowledgeable nor willing to give Matsui a great deal of credit for his Japanese accomplishments (yet). His recent performance is certainly winning converts, as it should.

If we judge him solely on what he has done in the majors, his average and fielding are certainly solid for an All-Star, his RBI total is his big plus for All-Star inclusion, but his power (as yet) is not really what one expects an All-Star outfielder's should be. His patience at the plate is good, but not great. Looked at by those standards, Matsui's case for All-Star status is marginal. Further, since he has only achieved the standards which make him a viable candidate through a month long hot streak, I'm sure some more skeptical people wonder whether he will maintain or improve upon his current marks. Personally, I prefer to consider the Japanese data, which makes him a much more qualified candidate.

Jim Albright

I like Tony's comments, but was shocked at the number of votes that Matsui has received. I truely respect him in that he went to the toughest city to play in sports and has to deal with a very difficult owner. I still think he should have played for my team, SF Giants, since he did so much damage against National League pitching.

Because of Matsui, I actually have an idea of who plays for the Yankees. I just hope he doesn't wear down toward the end of the season.

Roy S. Jonson, at Sports Illustrated, has a commentary up entitled "No doubt about it: Baseball is the new international pastime." It starts off,

"It's just not fair!" With his distinctive high-pitched voice, ESPN baseball analyst Harold Reynolds was in the zone recently on Baseball Tonight. The former player -- and capable analyst -- was lamenting the All-Star ballot totals of the two leading vote-getters among American League outfielders: Ichiro Suzuki of the Mariners and the Yankees' Hideki Matsui. "It's not fair when you've got a whole nation voting for these guys."

And concludes:

Not fair? No, it's more than fair. It's the American way.

[Edited by: westbaystars on Jul 5, 2003 9:26 AM, JST to not be a direct quote of the article. It's a good one, though, and I recommend reading it.]

Ichiro is the leading vote getter in the AL outfield because he is the most popular player on the current leading team in MLB.

Also, I am an American who cast my votes in the Japan All-Star game over the web.

This is an interesting and provocative subject, one that I have not thought on much, so I will not take sides: clearly there are arguments for and against allowing votes from other countries in an American All-Star game. But learning from this web site that we may, likewise, vote in the NPB All-Star game leads me to a conclusion I have shared countless times with my university students: American simply have to become more aware of the world beyond their shores.

Assuming there is a large Japanese vote for Suzuki and Matsui from abroad (which I have no problem with -- Japanese fans watch a lot of MLB on their TV and are as well-informed if not more so about the sport as anybody), there is no reason why we can't reciprocate and show some national pride by voting for Cabrera in Japan. But that won't happen because most Americans don't even know that a man named Cabrera is playing baseball in Japan. And they should.

- there is no reason why we can't reciprocate and show some national pride by voting for Cabrera in Japan. But that won't happen because most Americans don't even know that a man named Cabrera is playing baseball in Japan. And they should.

FYI, Cabrera is a Venezuelan. Tuffy Rhodes would be a better example.

I agree with you Sara that the unstoppable march of globalization makes it so important for all people to gain a better understanding of other cultures and environments. You wrote that Americans should know who Cabrera is. If one wanted to vote for Japanese All-Stars, then they should. For that matter, we all ought to know the name of the Prime Minister of Japan, but embarassingly, I bet a large portion of Americans don't. (I'd be surprised if Dubya could answer that before he ran for Pres).

Don't feel bad, most people don't know who the governor is in the next state. We are a big country, with a big domestic market, isolated geographically. We travel by car to see our relatives, but only 7% of us have passports to go beyond our borders. We have the biggest economy and military in the world, and so like the NY Yankees or Yomiuri Giants, the larger communities' view is mixed with admiration, envy, contempt, etc.

These days, the average American perceives the latter from overseas, doesn't like it and views it as unfair. It is taken personally, even if one never voted for George Bush or ascribes to right wing ideas. Hence, some of the comments you see on threads and more disinterest in the affairs of the global community in Japan. It's sort of like avoiding the unpleasant situation.

Voting is the cornerstone of democracy. It gives voice to the people. To exercise one's vote responsibly, one needs knowledge and information. Yes, Americans should know Cabrera, but first they should know Koizumi. Japanese should know guys like Pujols, Garciaparra, Smoltz, Loaiza, Helton, etc. before blindly voting for Ichiro, Matsui, Hasegawa, Nomo, and others on the home team. Use your vote for the most worthy. To accomplish this, people need factual, unbiased information, which is sorely lacking on both sides of the Pacific on the respective leagues -- and maturity. Until this knowledege and information is completely diffused, exchanged, and understood, voting in each other's All-Star games is going to be prone to distorting and disturbing results.

Now ponder this on the geopolitical level and one sees the daunting, but necessary task ahead. But the only constant is the game of baseball.

Here we go again. Such sensitivity!

Rhodes and Cabrera leading All-Star Balloting? Americans on the other side of the Pacific stuffing the ballot box? Pleeeeease. The average MLB fan doesn't even know who they are. Maybe these two guys are leading the voting because they are All-Stars. Give the Japanese fans some credit.

I've seen much worse bile on Internet threads than those Yogi. Some are downright embarassing. However, it does strike many as unfair that those who do not go to the ballpark, buy premium channels, or are the target audience of paid advertisers, those who do not directly or indirectly support the MLB game, should not vote, and if they do, they should not act so blatantly parochially.

It was rightly pointed out that MLB ballot stuffing is an American trait that is being emulated by Japanese fans. My view is that we will never eliminate parochial interests. However, it is in the interests of the game and of the fans, to vote the best and most deserving players on to the teams. This makes for a better and more exciting game and properly bestows this honor on the most deserving. People should think more of the game and its betterment.

Ichiro is clearly an All Star, Matsui probably on the cusp, but would have been selected by MLB to fill out the roster. Some of the postings referenced were a tad jingoistic, but then again, so is blindly voting for your hometown player, no matter where your home town may be on Earth.